Loose Change 911

[Lobber]

1:20 hour movie about a conspiracy theory of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

If you bear through the whole thing, it does leave you with doubts about what really happened that day. I'm not so certain that it was a terrorist attack anymore.

[Xamindar]

LoL! Talk about a waste of time.

[Topher]

This has been posted ad nauseum.

Ooh look, it's standard conspiracy theory!
Rule #1 - Take grainy, compressed video and extrapolate it into vast and detailed ideas.

Rule #2 - Eye witness accounts and quotations out of context are always true.

Rule #3 - Point out everything else that could have happened and show proof positive results, ignoring that proving one conspiracy disproves another \"proved\" conspiracy earlier on.

Rule #4 - Conclude that since we can't prove that everything else didn't happen, something else but what seems obvious must have happened.

[Lobber]

It's amazing the conclusions you can jump to without ever considering the evidence at hand.

[Topher]

It's amazing the conclusions you can jump to without ever considering the evidence at hand.

Absolutely! I hope you take that heart.

[Lobber]

So, have you considered it?

[Xamindar]

So, have you considered it?

Lobber, you of all people, especially sense you are of the faith, should understand what "evidence" is.....or do you?

[Topher]

So, have you considered it?

Define "it".

[CUDA]

I'm not so certain that it was a terrorist attack anymore.

then you need your head checked. there are bad people in this world. and sometimes bad people do bad things. on September 11, 2001 a group of terrorists did a bad thing. you need to stop listening to Michael Moore and come back to earth. there will always be conspiracy theorists when something like this happens, Pearl Harbor, Kennedy, 9-11 hell even the Da Vinci code,they are people that dont have the mental capacity to accept the eveidence put before thier eyes, they feel that there has to be a more sinister plot behind it. I guess its come from our natural distrust of the government. try not to get sucked up into it

[SuperSheep]

I saw the movie and have my doubts as well but I also learned that at least one thing in the movie is not as MM asserts. The underside of the plane does indeed have that extra part that he shows to great lengths to look like a military craft.

I think whatever happened that day, it is a tragedy of immense proportions and my grief at the time was immense. All I could think of was how to help. It made me feel very small.

Movies such as this unfortunately tap into our deepest fears and pains about tragedies that we witness, and I think the reason why there forms a thought that this may be true is because this...

Before 9/11, if you told me a group of people, none of which with commercial pilots licenses, would crash 4 planes into 4 different historic sites(minus the one that didn't make it) all within an hour of each other and our government would not in fact stop one plane, I would probably have thought that was a crazy idea and would never happen.

But after 9/11, you realize the depths that some will go to for their agendas and it only leaves you feeling that if that happens, what makes what MM says so crazy? Perhaps MM, or govt., or both have agendas as well.

[Lobber]

It would be the movie I linked. If you haven't watched it and you are judging it without considering it, then you are biased against it and have not considered it as it presents some very valid questions about the events of 9/11.

There is no way a jumbo jet could have hit the Pentagon. There is no evidence of any jumbo jet in the Pentagon wreckage. No engines were recovered for one. For another, the whole in the side of the building was a mere 16 feet in diameter. Jumbo jets are considerably bigger than that. For yet another, all films of the impact were confiscated by the feds. What are they hiding? If the plane truly vaporized, how did they recover bodies, but not titanium engines?

Secondly, the Twin towers are the first buildings in the history of skyscrapers to have collapsed due to fire. No other buildings have ever collapsed so completely simply because of such a brief fire, or even a long one. Even one of the twin towers had been on fire in the past for much longer over more floors, but it didn't collapse then, so why now? And why do all of the eye witnesses corroborate that there were explosions during the collapse, as one would imagine there might be if it were a demolition? And why do you see explosions in the buildings as it is going down? And why did they remove bomb sniffing dogs just weeks before the attack and do special twelve hour fire drills? Unless the buildings were meant to be taken down during the fight. If the fire was such a raging inferno, then how could the firemen have radioed back that all they needed were two lines and they could have knocked down the fire? How could they have even gotten to that fire? 2000 degrees is hot, but steel doesnt even get red hot until it reaches 3000 degrees, so why do experts lie about basic physics? Unless, yes, of course, the buildings were intentionally demolished by explosives. Thats why seismologists registered the collapse isn't it?


You haven't considered these facts, have you?

[ccb056]

The only thing that makes me curious about the attacks is the fall, or more specifically the semmingly freefall of the towers. Kind of removes the effect of conservation of momentum when floors hit each other, like in a demolition.

[dissent]

Wiki 911

Oh, and by the way, did you know that the Earth is flat?

[Topher]

I watched the movie a while ago.

There is no way a jumbo jet could have hit the Pentagon.

Back this up. Why is it impossible for a plane to hit a 5 story building? You know they can land on the ground, that's below 5 stories.

There is no evidence of any jumbo jet in the Pentagon wreckage.

Yes there is, check out the pictures here:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

No engines were recovered for one.

No?
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-photos.html

For another, the whole in the side of the building was a mere 16 feet in diameter. Jumbo jets are considerably bigger than that.

Another thing is that the Pentagon isn't a piece of paper that would leave a "Looney toons" contour of anything that ran into it. Number two is that the plane isn't a solid piece of steel, it's hollow. Take the center of any paper towl roll (just a cardboard tube) and jam it head on into a wall. What happens? The tube folds into itself, the whole you'd get if you forced it through the wall would be smaller than the tube itself. Now glue some wings on the tub and jam it into the wall. What happens to the wings? Do they make cookie-cutter indentations their exact length?

For yet another, all films of the impact were confiscated by the feds. What are they hiding?

They've been released.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1 ... 86,00.html
(There's an official Department of Defense website with the video links on there, but I can't find it at the moment).
There are supposedly other videos that have not been released too. But the ones that have show the plane crashing into the Pentago, do the other videos show missles, UFOs and taco bell stands hitting it as well? That I don't know (uh oh, does that mean everything I've said is 100% wrong?[/conspiracy theory]).

If the plane truly vaporized, how did they recover bodies, but not titanium engines?

Who said they recovered bodies from the victims on the plane? I'd actually be surprised if this happened, though I wouldn't say its impossible. I think the word "body" should be remains as saying body implies that it still had a head, arms and legs but anyone on that plane wouldn't be in one piece anymore.

But there are pictures of the engines (linked above). See how conspiracies snowball off of evidence it assumes is 100% correct. This is extrapolating small amounts of data into intricate senarios.

Secondly, the Twin towers are the first buildings in the history of skyscrapers to have collapsed due to fire. No other buildings have ever collapsed so completely simply because of such a brief fire, or even a long one.

No building has ever been hit by a 757/767 at 400-500 MPH. This isn't a valid comparison. No building has ever collapsed with so many bananas in it either.

Even one of the twin towers had been on fire in the past for much longer over more floors, but it didn't collapse then, so why now?

What event is this? The 1993 bombing that happened in a garage next to the World Trade Center? Did it burn as hot as jet fuel and were there holes in the building? It's not the same scenario if not.

And why do all of the eye witnesses corroborate that there were explosions during the collapse, as one would imagine there might be if it were a demolition?

You've actually talked to all the eye witnesses? I watched it happen on TV, I'm an eye witness and no one ever asked me. Even if you had to be there, that's most of Manhattan. Even if most of the people you interviewed did agree there were explosions, show me how it's a statistically accurate sampling.

And why do you see explosions in the buildings as it is going down?

Who blow things up after the building is already coming down?

And why did they remove bomb sniffing dogs just weeks before the attack and do special twelve hour fire drills? Unless the buildings were meant to be taken down during the fight.

We had a fire drill at school once, if every time you did a drill it meant the disaster would happen, we'd have been the happiest group of elementary school kids ever. Let's do the "bikini clad super models are coming over" drill (oh please...oh please...)

If the fire was such a raging inferno, then how could the firemen have radioed back that all they needed were two lines and they could have knocked down the fire?

They could have been wrong? They didn't reach high enough to see the larger portions of the fire? There were two buildings on fire now adding even more ambiguity to your question?

How could they have even gotten to that fire?

The stairs?

2000 degrees is hot, but steel doesnt even get red hot until it reaches 3000 degrees, so why do experts lie about basic physics?

Because it sells. There's no physical principal you can employ for a pill to give you a larger penis, and yet the email experts claim it all the time! And for such great prices, I mean that stuff would be worth millions of dollars a pill!

Besides, even if you heated metal up to 2000 degrees does it not become easier to bend? No ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor it does not make sense, the defense rests.

Unless, yes, of course, the buildings were intentionally demolished by explosives. Thats why seismologists registered the collapse isn't it?

So if it was hit by a jetliner and then collapsed...it wouldn't have registered any kind of seismological event?

You haven't considered these facts, have you?

I've considered your facts and now you should consider mine:
1. The people on the itineraries on all four airplanes did exist and now they don't. Where did they go, if not crashed into buildings?
2. Why does Chewbacca live on Endor?!

[Xamindar]

[Lobber]

I know you expect me to counter each point that you have attempted to counter with my own counter counter arguments. The fact that you spent so much time trying to counter my points proves to me that you fear I may be right, and that I have to be disproved on this public forum to insure that nothing I say is taken seriously. That to me shows the amount of fear that you have. If I were truly wrong, you wouldn't need to prove anything, would you? Apparently though, there is some truth to what I claim.

Oh and by the way, I reviewed the video of the pentagon films, and both show a missile hitting the pentagon.

[Xamindar]

Now that's a very rude response Lobber. Why are you like that? He was only trying to help you understand, as am I, and everyone else on these boards.

[Lobber]

So you too buy into the Bush rhetoric? Amazing how many people he has fooled.

[Topher]

I know you expect me to counter each point that you have attempted to counter with my own counter counter arguments. The fact that you spent so much time trying to counter my points proves to me that you fear I may be right, and that I have to be disproved on this public forum to insure that nothing I say is taken seriously. That to me shows the amount of fear that you have. If I were truly wrong, you wouldn't need to prove anything, would you? Apparently though, there is some truth to what I claim.

Oh and by the way, I reviewed the video of the pentagon films, and both show a missile hitting the pentagon.

No, I just like to debate and be satirical.

If you were truly right you could state things like "What I said about there being no engines in found in the Pentagon is wrong because there are pictures showing them" and not be afraid that your larger point might be proven wrong.

How about this, what about 9/11 that is generally accepted by the public is correct?

And if a missle hit the Pentagon, where did the people on flight 77 go?

[Kilarin]

The fact that you spent so much time trying to counter my points proves to me that you fear I may be right, and that I have to be disproved on this public forum to insure that nothing I say is taken seriously.

Lobber, I don't like Bush. I think he's the anti-Christs personal secretary. But really, think about what you are saying here.

If Topher had responded with just "You're wrong", you would have insisted that you must be right or he would have been able to present facts. But since Topher responded with facts, that ALSO proves that you must be right! At least give the other side a chance.

While there are probably all kinds of interesting anomalies involved in the 911 disaster, probably the most important piece of evidence is that Osama Bin Laden has admited he was behind the attack. If Bush had wanted to fake an attack, (and no, I don't think he would have) he wouldn't have been so creative. He's not that smart. He would have just popped off a canister of nerve gas somewhere and blamed Saddam. It would have been MUCH simpler and would have eliminated many of the arguments about going into Iraq.

The biggest problem with conspiracy theories is how many people they require working together and all keeping the big secret. I can imagine that the government could get together a group of five guys who would be willing to nerve gas our own people and wouldn't tell about it afterwards. But can you imagine how many people would be required to pull off the 911 stunt as laid out by the conspiracy theorists? And every one of those people had to have a consience so dead that they never balked at all the bodies they were about to pile up, and never felt regret afterwards and went to the news with the story.

Now then, just to bring us back to the direct point. I think Bush is a ninny, and I opposed going into Iraq in the manner and for the reasons we did. So I have nothing to be "afriad" of from this conspiracy theory. And yet I just don't think it holds up.

[CUDA]

so let me get this right, you want us to believe that the US government supposedly contacted 19 men of Arab decent, and convinced those 19 men that they could cause great harm to the US by working WITH our government to destroy our Economic, Military, and Political heads ( whitehouse flight 98 ) and that our government coordinated with these 19 men a time and date where they could fly into buildings where we happened to plant explosives that were set to go off sometime after impact of these planes to make the damage more devistating. oop sorry they didnt use a plane on the pentagon it was strictly and explosive plant to simulate a plane. and that the President knew all this was going to happen thats why he was in Florida at the time of this Government conspiracy attack, just so he would be safe incase flight 98 had made it to the white house.

WC Fields was correct, there's a Lobber born every minute

if you want a true conspiracy, this was really the devils work

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/wtcface.htm

Pareidol is the technical term for our penchant for finding specific images amidst randomness. Just as people see all sorts of images in clouds, so viewers can find anything from an ordinary ball of smoke to the face of Satan himself in these kinds of pictures. But do we really need to find the visage of the devil here to know that evil was behind the events pictured?

[Topher]

so let me get this right, you want us to believe that the US government supposedly contacted 19 men of Arab decent, and convinced those 19 men that they could cause great harm to the US by working WITH our government to destroy our Economic, Military, and Political heads ( whitehouse flight 98 ) and that our government coordinated with these 19 men a time and date where they could fly into buildings where we happened to plant explosives that were set to go off sometime after impact of these planes to make the damage more devistating. oop sorry they didnt use a plane on the pentagon it was strictly and explosive plant to simulate a plane. and that the President knew all this was going to happen thats why he was in Florida at the time of this Government conspiracy attack, just so he would be safe incase flight 98 had made it to the white house.

WC Fields was correct, there's a Lobber born every minute

if you want a true conspiracy, this was really the devils work

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/wtcface.htm

Pareidolia, I learned a new word today!

[CUDA]

Pareidolia, I learned a new word today!

woohoo Topher. here's another word for some members of this forum


sucker

n 1: a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of [syn: chump, fool, gull, mark, patsy, fall guy, soft touch, mug]

[Dakatsu]

I saw those videos a long time ago, and I don't know what to believe. The video has many, and I mean MANY good points, but some are poor points.

[dissent]

WC Fields was correct, there's a Lobber born every minute

IIRC you were refering to a comment often attributed to P T Barnum. Not that I disagree with the sentiment.

[Lobber]

Apparently you buy the goverments lines. Such as their images of supposed engines from the planes. How does that prove that those were in the wreckage? You don't think the government can photoshop just like the rest of us? The video even mentions those exact images and shows why they could not belong to the jumbo jet. It also showed that half of the hijackers were still alive in other countries. And that the people from the flights were redirected to buildings in an airport that was evacuated. Since we never heard from these people again, that can mean only one thing: The government killed them and disposed of the bodies. This isn't too hard to believe. It is possible to remote pilot a plane, the government does it all the time.

[Topher]

Apparently you buy the goverments lines. Such as their images of supposed engines from the planes. How does that prove that those were in the wreckage? You don't think the government can photoshop just like the rest of us? The video even mentions those exact images and shows why they could not belong to the jumbo jet. It also showed that half of the hijackers were still alive in other countries. And that the people from the flights were redirected to buildings in an airport that was evacuated. Since we never heard from these people again, that can mean only one thing: The government killed them and disposed of the bodies. This isn't too hard to believe. It is possible to remote pilot a plane, the government does it all the time.

I see, "Desaparecidos 2 - Lost in the US"

So, there are jet engines that don't belong to the airplane claimed to hit the Pentagon that could have been piloted remotely but shows up on video as a missile? Here we go again, let's just throw up a bunch of disjointed, contradicting theories to challenge in anyway what the majority believe.

The fact that we never heard from them can only mean the government killed them? Bull, they were traded to aliens to ensure the saftey of Earth from being eaten by an enormous mutant Star Goat, and more pictures of the Moon's surface for future faked "missions".

Show me evidence that they were killed and not abducted by aliens.

[Lobber]

Perhaps you should take the shrooms after you post replies, not before.

[Topher]

Perhaps you should take the shrooms after you post replies, not before.

Perhaps you should read more literature.

[Lobber]

You can't even make sense out of a dollar bill.

[fliptw]

Occam's Razor is a methodology for finding the simplest explaination that fits the given facts.

[Xamindar]

Yay! It's Lobber vs........THE WORLD!!

[Ferno]

well if a plane did hit the pentagon, how come there weren't any cars blown about, or lightposts knocked inward.. or a massive gash leading up to the pentagon?

also, there's reports of people not hearing a plane until it was right above them? That's hogwash. I can hear a plane coming well before it is 'right on top of me'. and that's when it's at 1000 ft or more.

[CUDA]

ever been to an airshow, Blue Angels or Thunderbirds??
they have a little move that usually scares the crap out of people, while your looking at a jet over the field the team flies in over your head at 500MPH and is by you before your hit with this deafening roar that will make you jump out of your skin. this jumbo jet that was hitting the pentagon was not coming in for a landing at 150 MPH ya know. it truly amazes me that with as easily as things get leaked in Washington. even some top secret CIA info. that almost 5 year later, NO ONE that was supposedly involved with this so called conspiracy has leaked a word. how is that???

It also showed that half of the hijackers were still alive in other countries. And that the people from the flights were redirected to buildings in an airport that was evacuated

and yet not a single one of these people have stepped forward to say.
\"hey wait a minute thats not me I'm still alive in the middle east\"
OR
\"yes I was supposed to get on that plane but some guys in black suits hearded us all off right before take off\"

so what happened to these people did they get lost in a flight 19 senario while transporting them to a different location? maybe they went to area 51 and got taken up by aliens or maybe those guys in the black suits hit them with that little flashy thingy that we saw in that other government consipracy movie someone has had to let something slip!! you believe there is a conspiracy because you distrust the government (understood) not because of the evidence. this whole thread is rated a 10 on my wierd stuff-o-meter

[Kilarin]

First, Lobber, this is NOT a personal attack. We disagree with you, but I probably disagree with everyone on this forum about something or other. I can disagree without it being an attack upon you.

The government killed them and disposed of the bodies.

What about the family members who were called by cell phone? Were those faked?

And again, where did Bush find all of these ice hearted people who would not have any qualms about killing off all of their own people.

Lobber, really, which seems more likely to you? That Bush found and coordinated a LARGE number of people who did not mind killing thousands upon thousands of innocent American Citizens? OR, that Osama Bin Laden finally found a clever way to hit us?

Wait, before you answer, consider a few points.

1: We KNOW that Osama Bin Laden would like to kill us, and has no moral compunctions about doing so.

2: To say that I do not like Bush is quite an understatement, but we do NOT know that Bush would willingly and deliberately murder thousands of his own citizens in cold blood.

3: We KNOW that Osama Bin Laden has admitted he was behind the 911 attacks.

4: The 911 plot as the conspiracy theorists lay it out is extremely complicated. It would require the cooperation and coordination of a LOT of government agents with no morals whatsoever. Where did he find them, how did he keep them quiet before and afterwards?

5: All of that complication produced an attack that did NOT point at Saddam. From well before 911, Bush wanted to take down Saddam (who didn't?), he used 911 as a poor excuse to attack Iraq. (remember, I'm not on the conservatives side here). So if one of the major goals was to create an excuse to invade Iraq, WHY NOT CREATE A GOOD ONE? It would have been SO much easier to simply pop open a canister of nerve gas in downtown New York. You have a simply plot that way, only requires that you find one or two sociopaths to carry it off, and the evidence points DIRECTLY at Saddam. It would achieve all of the goals of the conspiracy plot, without all of the incredible problems.

--

Ok, if after considering the above, you still think that the US government was behind 911, can you tell me what your answers to #4 and #5 were?

[Lobber]

Are you done yet?

It isn't my job to prove to you that 911 was planned by the government. It is your job to prove to yourself what really happened. All I can do is present more evidence to be considered. And I've done just that. I am not fully convinced that the government did this. All I'm saying is that there are some strange anomalies in the reporting of what actually happened that must be seriously considered, and that you shouldn't buy into everything the media tells you simply because they flash a few images across the screen and tell you what to believe.

Personally, I'd like to see all of the evidence released to the public, but in the end, all the government has to do to cover its own tracks is to claim secrecy in the name of national security. They need that security because without it they might reveal that they themselves have betrayed the American people, and they are afraid for their own security in that event.

As well they should be.

[Topher]

Are you done yet?

It isn't my job to prove to you that 911 was planned by the government. It is your job to prove to yourself what really happened. All I can do is present more evidence to be considered. And I've done just that. I am not fully convinced that the government did this. All I'm saying is that there are some strange anomalies in the reporting of what actually happened that must be seriously considered, and that you shouldn't buy into everything the media tells you simply because they flash a few images across the screen and tell you what to believe.

Oh don't try to absolve yourself of responsibility of what you said because you're backed into a corner. You can't simply present "evidence" and then expect the world to change and everyone saying "Wow, look at all that evidence you presented!". If that's all you do you're just trying to get attention and you're no different than a homeless man prophesizing on a street corner. You can't present something without backing it up.

You have yet to name an anomily that we haven't been able to explain in a consistent way. You think a missle hit the Pentagon? That's fine, present an explanation that explains why there are what looks like pieces of a plane and plane engines in photographs of the Pentagon. But don't resort to muck racking tactics like "and the government killed anyone that knew about it!" or "don't eat mushrooms before posting". It turns your "evidence" into jibberish because you're not taking anyone else seriously, so why should anyone take you seriously.

[Ferno]

have I been to an airshow? yea. but a passenger jet is just slightly bigger, slower, and louder than an F-18 hornet.

[dissent]

The fact that we never heard from them can only mean the government killed them? Bull, they were traded to aliens to ensure the saftey of Earth from being eaten by an enormous mutant Star Goat...

Nah - they were sacrificed in a secret ceremony to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, natch.

[Dakatsu]

Okay, before anyone thinks I am a conspiracy thoerist, I just don't know what to believe yet after seeing this video. But I can answer some anti-conspiracy points with proof.

What about the family members who were called by cell phone? Were those faked?

In the video, it showed technology to fake voices using just a few samples of someones voice.

3: We KNOW that Osama Bin Laden has admitted he was behind the 911 attacks.

Actually it is very possibe that the video was faked. The video had very poor picture, his voice was different, and he was wearing things forbidden in islam. He is also left handed, but the video showed him right-handed.

Like I said, just something to think about.