DescentBB

Is it just me, or are drugs becoming more prevalent in high schools today. I was recently talking to an acquaintance of mine and they told me that everyone in our class does drugs and drinks often.

Shadowfury333: well, I try to avoid the drinking and drugging scene

Shadowfury333's aquaintance: oh and by avoiding it you excluded pretty much everyone

Is this just the case at my highschool, or is my generation doomed, and by extension my hopes of finding good friends doomed?

yes, kids everywhere experiment with recreational drugs

no, your generation is not doomed

yes, people with judgemental purgative attitudes do not attract good friends - so you are doomed there.

roid wrote:yes, kids everywhere experiment with recreational drugs

Nope, not everyone chooses to fry their brains.

Choosing not to do drugs or alchohol (which is just another drug) is a valid and WISE choice.

I had a party at my house and invited some friends over. one of them brought a date who was from a very different crowd. Halfway through the evening she approached me and said, "This is very strange, the party's been going on for HOURS now, and no one has thrown up yet!" I was a bit surprised but explained that no one had ever thrown up at ANY of my parties that I could remember. This was apparently outside of her experiance.

Believe it or not, she had lots of fun even though the entire evening was vomit free.

Keep your brain, you're going to need it someday!

Every week take the money you would have spent on drugs and invest it. By the time you are 35 years old you will be a millionare.

Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure what I'll do with them, but thanks anyway.

When I was in HS, the obscure bathroom by the wood/metal shops was a haven for the potheads. People would go in or out, and a cloud would roll out. The gym lockers were better because they had a great ventilation system. That's where I went. Nobody really drank at school though. The weekend, sure.

Kilarin wrote:

roid wrote:yes, kids everywhere experiment with recreational drugs

Nope, not everyone chooses to fry their brains.

No, kids everywhere DO experiment with drugs (i didn't say every kid - kids everywhere). In countrys with LESS drug laws (ie: Netherlands) the kids end up experimenting with drugs much LESS, but they still experiment.
(no that's not a typo)

Kilarin wrote:Choosing not to do drugs or alchohol (which is just another drug) is a valid and WISE choice.

Agreed, it's a valid & respectable choice.
But implying that someone can't be a good friend to you because THEY don't also abstain like you do, this is dumb. What kindof teetoller is going to go around asking people if they abstain from recreational drugs or not so they can decide if they are a worthy friend?
oh sorry i can't be your friend, you took E at a party once. hah

roid wrote:In countrys with LESS drug laws (ie: Netherlands) the kids end up experimenting with drugs much LESS, but they still experiment.
(no that's not a typo)

No argument from me, I'm the Libertarian, remember?

roid wrote:But implying that someone can't be a good friend to you because THEY don't also abstain like you do, this is dumb.

I'll have to disagree with you strongly here. I have friends who drink, but I don't hang out with drunks. For a teenager to hang out with a crowd that encourages drug use is a good way to end up in the trap themselves.

I'll have to disagree with you strongly here. I have friends who drink, but I don't hang out with drunks. For a teenager to hang out with a crowd that encourages drug use is a good way to end up in the trap themselves.

Why do people consider someone who smokes pot occaisonally (like maybe 1 joint a day) worse than someone who drinks 1+ beers a day?

Alcohol to me is a worse drug than pot. Trust me, I've done enough of both to know the effects. My family has a history of alcoholism and it's disgusting to see your grandfather puking his brains out on xmas eve when you are 5 yrs old.

If I understand you correctly, you would not want a friend who smokes pot a bit but you are ok with a friend who drinks?


Isn't that a double standard?

CDN_Merlin wrote:If I understand you correctly, you would not want a friend who smokes pot a bit but you are ok with a friend who drinks?

sorry, I was unclear, allow me to clarify.

First, I'm an adult, that means that my friends who occasionally drink are not doing anything illegal.

While I do not approve of the laws against drug use by adults, I don't have any problem with making it illegal for kids to use drugs or alcohol. (A point I certainly should have clarified in my response to roid above)

And even if I DID want drugs to be legal for kids to use, it would not matter in this decision. The fact is that drug use by teenagers IS currently against the law. So is alcohol consumption.

For a teenager to hang out with kids who are drinking or doing drugs is not only putting themselves at risk for picking up the behaviors, but is putting themselves at serious risk of getting arrested. Try explaining to the cops that you were just holding your friends purse and didn't know what was in it, or that even though you smell like pot you weren't actually smoking it, or that you didn't know what was in the trunk of the car, etc.

So, while I completely agree that Alcohol is much more damaging to this country than pot, I stand behind my statement that a teenager is being VERY foolish to hang out with kids who either drink or do drugs.

As for my personal choice in friends. Believe it or not, I can only think of one friend I've had who dropped hints they might smoke pot. yeah, I hang out with a conservative crowd, but I imagine it's due in large part to the fact that I am very open in my disapproval of drug use, so people who were playing around felt no need to inform me of it. Anyway, this one friend was just a friend of a friend who came over for gaming nights. I decided there was no risk of his bringing drugs into my house, so it was not an important issue. Of course, I wouldn't have wanted him bringing alcohol into my house either, but at least then I wouldn't have been afraid of the police.

So yes, it is a double standard, but its not MY double standard, it's the cops double standard.

As for friends over the web, well, in that case your illegal behaviors are of no risk to me at all.

Ok thats cool. I don't mind people drinking or smoking but not if they do it while driving etc. If you also drink until you pass out, I don't want to know you.

Over the net, I couldn't care less what you do.

Kilarin wrote:

roid wrote:But implying that someone can't be a good friend to you because THEY don't also abstain like you do, this is dumb.

I'll have to disagree with you strongly here. I have friends who drink, but I don't hang out with drunks. For a teenager to hang out with a crowd that encourages drug use is a good way to end up in the trap themselves.

Yeah i honestly can't see myself ever actually encouraging kids to be socially conservative like you are suggesting. The world has enough sheeple. How about instead of teaching our kids howto be afraid of standing out - we teach them howto think for themselves and stand up for what they believe in. Teach them to be learned, active, participatory and embracing of (rather than fearful of) their fellowman & government.

If something's wrong you don't hide from it, you change it. It's the principles here at wikiped... oh wait wrong website

Only the weak will fall into the 'trap'. They will fall in any trap, and probably can't be saved anyway.

I hung around with people who did cocaine. I was offered it. I never touched it. I didn't hang with the heroin crowd. I wouldn't touch that stuff either, and they are basically worthless people. (Anyone who's told that heroin is one-shot addictive, can/will kill you in one dose, and then does it anyway? Worthless.)

You can be friends with people who do things that you don't. Just avoid the ones who make life difficult for themselves and/or those around them.

Oh, and yes, your generation is doomed, through laziness and ineptness.

Testiculese wrote:Oh, and yes, your generation is doomed, through laziness and ineptness.

Oh, well thanks for the reassurance.

Also, I don't mind so much if someone tried something and decided not to do it again, or if they were doing that stuff and stopped, but I would be careful lest they change their mind.

Will Robinson wrote:Every week take the money you would have spent on drugs and invest it. By the time you are 35 years old you will be a millionare.

Yeah, but a very square and boring Millionaire!

Or, you could sell 3/4 of the drugs you buy, making a profit, and invest that profit. By the time you're 35 (if you aren't in prison) you'll have 50 million, 4 new Lamborghinis, a []D[][]\\/[][]D[][]\\[]' lifestyle, hot and cold running Hos, a holiday home in Tahoe, and you'll be invited to parties with Paris and Nicole.

Or, you could have been shot dead in a misunderstanding about price when scoring your first key.

Testiculese wrote:Oh, and yes, your generation is doomed, through laziness and ineptness.

That's a bit unfair Dave. I think it's more to do with the fact that US public schooling is of shocking quality, kids are raised on a diet of stupidity, fear and drugs, and parents don't care because they are too stoned, and too interested in their Hummer and their 80" Plasma TV.

roid wrote:Yeah i honestly can't see myself ever actually encouraging kids to be socially conservative like you are suggesting. The world has enough sheeple.

Ha! I see the entire thing the other way around. It's the drug-heads who are sheeple, its the kids who refuse to participate who stand out as individuals.

roid wrote:If something's wrong you don't hide from it

Saying, "I don't do that", and choosing your friends accordingly, isn't hiding. Quite the opposite.

I consider a drug habit, whether it be heroin, pot, alcohol, or even tobacco, to be a DANGEROUS habit. And while I have no problem with my son being friends with people who have different points of view, I will encourage him not to choose friends who have DANGEROUS habits.

I know we have quite a few people here who approve of "recreational drug use", and I am NOT trying to offend them, but I also feel no compulsion to lie about my opinions on this matter. It's not like it's anything you haven't heard before.

I think that if you are an adult, you have a right to melt your brain in any way you choose, just so long as you don't harm anyone else directly in the process. And I put my votes behind that. But supporting your RIGHT to damage yourself doesn't mean I support you damaging yourself. There is an important difference.

Telling a kid not to hang out with other kids who do drugs isn't JUST about avoiding influence, although that is certainly an important element for a teenager. But its just not a good idea to hang out with people who are doing illegal and dangerous things. Don't hang out with shoplifters. Don't hang out with people who vandalize other peoples property for amusement. Don't hang out with kids who jump in front of cars and video the drivers reactions. And don't hang out with kids who do drugs or alcohol. Even if you would never be tempted to do any of these things yourself.

Am I missing something? Because this doesn't seem like a radical idea to me, but just common sense.

Mobius wrote:

Testiculese wrote:Oh, and yes, your generation is doomed, through laziness and ineptness.

That's a bit unfair Dave. I think it's more to do with the fact that US public schooling is of shocking quality, kids are raised on a diet of stupidity, fear and drugs, and parents don't care because they are too stoned, and too interested in their Hummer and their 80" Plasma TV.

That's what I said, abridged

Kilarin...dangerous? What? You're lumping a joint with OMG HEROIN/CRACK/MURDER/DEATH/KILL.

Wow, \"melt your brain,\" \"fry your brain,\" etc. are fairly powerful claims. Are there any scientific studies that can justify them by showing that a recreational use of alcohol or marijuana does lead to a noteworthy loss of intelligence? I'm sure that this would have to be a topic of interest to somebody in the relevant fields, but I've never heard anything.

Testiculese wrote:Kilarin...dangerous? What? You're lumping a joint with OMG HEROIN/CRACK/MURDER/DEATH/KILL.

Yep.

Pot is illegal, getting caught with it is a crime. I disagree with the law, but that doesn't change what the cops do if you are caught with it.

AND, Pot is a drug. It is certainly less dangerous than heroin or crack, but it's still a mind altering substance that has detrimental affects upon the people who use it.

less dangerous doesn't mean NOT dangerous. Please note that I include alcohol in the list, and even tabacco.

Jeff250 wrote:Wow, "melt your brain," "fry your brain," etc. are fairly powerful claims. Are there any scientific studies that can justify them by showing that a recreational use of alcohol or marijuana does lead to a noteworthy loss of intelligence?

A large list of articles on alcohol and the brain
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/brain/

even just heavy social drinking can cause brain damage.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... ewsid=7233

"Blackouts are much more common among social drinkers than previously assumed and should be viewed as a potential consequence of acute intoxication regardless of age or whether the drinker is clinically dependent on alcohol"
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

"Although alcohol researchers believe that drinking can cause brain damage, the quantity of alcohol and the length of time needed to accomplish this remain unknown."
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/brain/a/blacer040314.htm

"The average age of a child’s first drink is now 12, and nearly 20 percent of 12 to 20 year-olds are considered binge drinkers. While many believe that underage drinking is an inevitable "rite of passage" that adolescents can easily recover from because their bodies are more resilient, the opposite is true."

"short-term or moderate drinking impairs learning and memory far more in youth than adults. Adolescents need only drink half as much to suffer the same negative effects."

"Youth who drink can have a significant reduction in learning and memory, and teen alcohol users are most susceptible to damaging two key brain areas that are undergoing dramatic changes in adolescence:
* The hippocampus handles many types of memory and learning and suffers from the worst alcohol-related brain damage in teens. Those who had been drinking more and for longer had significantly smaller hippocampi (10 percent).
* The prefrontal area (behind the forehead) undergoes the most change during adolescence. Researchers found that adolescent drinking could cause severe changes in this area and others, which play an important role in forming adult personality and behavior and is often called the CEO of the brain."
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9416.html


"Heavy marijuana use impairs a person's ability to form memories, recall events (see Marijuana, Memory, and the Hippocampus), and shift attention from one thing to another"
http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports ... uana3.html

A study by the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine, published in the Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society found that the only deleterious side effect of moderate recreational marijuana use ""was a minimal malfunction in the domains of learning and forgetting.""
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/pot/a/blucsd030628.htm
But the authors of the study also admitted that there were some limitations in their research.

However, an interesting study was just published in the March 14, 2006, issue of Neurology that found:
"We found that the longer people used marijuana, the more deterioration they had in these cognitive abilities, especially in the ability to learn and remember new information"
http://www.aan.com/press/press/index.cf ... elease=338
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology ... brain.html

Note that in the above study, frequent users were defined as ""those who had smoked four or more joints per week""


---
Conclusion?

Evidence that light use of alcohol damages the brain is scanty, but they really aren't certain where the damage starts. The problem is that so many people have trouble keeping the use light. Especially young people. it's just not worth the risk to me.

I'm certain the scientists will argue back and forth about the Marijuana for quite some time, but again, its just not worth the risk. I NEED every neuron I've got!

I'm supposedly on the board full of right-wing conservative fundamentalist religious wackos and I seem to be the only one with a complete non-tolerance position on alcohol and drugs.

Kilarin wrote:"The average age of a child’s first drink is now 12, and nearly 20 percent of 12 to 20 year-olds are considered binge drinkers. While many believe that underage drinking is an inevitable "rite of passage" that adolescents can easily recover from because their bodies are more resilient, the opposite is true."

Although the average starting age is suprisingly low (consider that for 12 to be average, 10 and 11 year olds would also be starting to drink), the number of binge drinkers is also surprisingly low, considering that the only conversation I ever hear about weekends will, without fail, have the phrase "x got (so/very/blind/stinking) drunk".

On the bright side, I was recently talking to someone who is a couple years older than me, and they said that they never bothered to do it. At least I'm not the only sensible one (also, they are female, however they are 9000km(5000miles) away)

Shadowfury333 wrote:the number of binge drinkers is also surprisingly low, considering that the only conversation I ever hear about weekends will, without fail, have the phrase "x got (so/very/blind/stinking) drunk".

I'm not certain I understand, do you mean there are a LOT of kids getting drunk, or just a few?

It sounds like a lot, but according to this study, it is an anomaly.

Shadowfury333 wrote:but according to this study, it is an anomaly.

20% is actually quite a bit, thats one in five. But thats an average. In some places (like your school) the percentage might be a lot higher, in others it may be lower.

At any level, its too high.

nm

Kilarin wrote:Evidence that light use of alcohol damages the brain is scanty, but they really aren't certain where the damage starts. The problem is that so many people have trouble keeping the use light. Especially young people. it's just not worth the risk to me.

I'm certain the scientists will argue back and forth about the Marijuana for quite some time, but again, its just not worth the risk. I NEED every neuron I've got!

I'm not so concerned. Just about everything causes brain damage these days, like big macs, cell phones, boxing, etc. Are you going to extend a no-tolerance policy to these too?

I think it's silly to live life in fear of possibly losing a negligible amount of brain cells by doing something enjoyable. I guess if you value brain cells over most everything else in life this would make sense, but personally, in any given circumstance, "I'd much rather be happy than right." However, the idiom, "everything in moderation," definitely applies here too.

Jeff250 wrote:Just about everything causes brain damage these days, like big macs, cell phones, boxing,

I'm a vegetarian, and I don't box, so that just leaves cell phones.

Jeff250 wrote:I guess if you value brain cells over most everything else in life this would make sense, but personally, in any given circumstance, "I'd much rather be happy than right."

There is no way to live life without risks, but there are some things that aren't worth the risks to me. I don't need chemical stimulants or depresants to be happy. And, I must say, I have yet to see a case where I thought they actually made anyone else happy. But that is their decision, not mine.

Ugkh, that kind of response reminds me of that banal adage, \"You don't need to drink to have fun.\" The obvious retort to that is, sure, you don't, but that doesn't mean that you can't have more fun if you drink.

Jeff250 wrote:The obvious retort to that is, sure, you don't, but that doesn't mean that you can't have more fun if you drink.

Why would you need a depressant to have more fun? This point has always eluded me.

How many lives have you seen that were negatively impacted alcohol? I'm certain you can list a lot, I could, and I'm rather isolated from alcohol since I grew up in a community that did not approve of alcohol.

How many lives have you seen IMPROVED by alcohol? I certainly can't name one.

Drunk driving, child beating, unwanted pregnancies, stupid decisions made while drunk that never would have been made sober. Just a few drinks impairs judgment, and my judgment is poor enough when it's running at full throttle.

I sometimes think that my very conservative upbringing made me miss out on a few things, but when I look back on growing up without alcohol, I've never regretted it.

Kilarin wrote:Why would you need a depressant to have more fun? This point has always eluded me.

Well, have you ever indulged in fine drink or drug?

Kilarin wrote:How many lives have you seen that were negatively impacted alcohol? I'm certain you can list a lot, I could, and I'm rather isolated from alcohol since I grew up in a community that did not approve of alcohol.

How many lives have you seen IMPROVED by alcohol? I certainly can't name one.

First, I should mention that you must have a radically different understanding of the well-lived life if you don't consider having more fun as an improvement to your life. What does the well-lived life consist in for you, then, anyways?

If you don't consider having a more pleasurable existence to contribute to the well-lived life, then the same sort of question that you asked me could be framed about all sorts of things that you probably would never be willing to give up.

Consider personal vehicle ownership. There are, what, 50,000 car accident deaths a year? Plus other casualties, property loss, and what not. That's a lot of lives ruined. So I could pose the same question to you: I'm sure you could make a list of people who have had lives ruined by people driving cars in lieu of public transporation, biking, walking, etc., and yet how many people have had their lives improved by driving a car (except a slightly more pleasurable existence)?

I've already mentioned that alcohol and certain drugs, like anything in life, should be partaken in moderation, which I think nullifies any of these concerns. Still, when I have a few beers, the first thing on my mind is not, Where is the first child that I can go hunt and beat down? Like really, who actually thinks that? I guess some people must do, but I assure you that they must already have some serious preexisting problems.

Besides, who's life has been ruined by pot? I mean, really, what harm does a peace-loving stoner really pose to anyone?

If you just now are realizing that drugs are huge in high schools then you've been living under a rock.

Beowulf wrote:If you just now are realizing that drugs are huge in high schools then you've been living under a rock.

1. Yes, I have been living under a rock, so what? It's a comfy rock.

2. It hit me in the middle of Grade 9 that they exist, I assumed that they were big, but my parents kept trying (unsuccessfully, mind you) that they weren't big. I just had never had my suspiscions confirmed until I spoke with the aforementioned aquaintance.

Jeff250 wrote:have you ever indulged in fine drink or drug?

I assume that by fine drink you don't mean hot chocolate with marshmallows and a hint of mint?

But yep, The closest I've ever come to drinking alcohol was taking nyquil, and after some thought, I wiped that off my acceptable medicines list a long time ago.

As for drugs, the dentist tried to use Nitrous Oxide on me once. Best we got was a tingling sensation in my toes. He finally turned the gas off and told me I was wasting "good stuff".

So no, I can NOT speak from experience about alcohol or drugs, and thats just fine with me.

Jeff250 wrote:you must have a radically different understanding of the well-lived life if you don't consider having more fun as an improvement to your life.

Well, first, I think fun is shallow. I prefer joy. But thats beside the point. I admit that I can not speak from direct experience about the effects of drugs or alcohol. But from observation, I have yet to see a single person who's "fun" actually seem to have been increased due to the use of alcohol or other drugs. I can point to several who's lives were destroyed.

And just to clarify, yes, some people manage to keep their alcohol use in moderation. I haven't seen anything they are experiencing that I feel I need in my life.

Jeff250 wrote:I'm sure you could make a list of people who have had lives ruined by people driving cars in lieu of public transportation, biking, walking, etc., and yet how many people have had their lives improved by driving a car (except a slightly more pleasurable existence)?

I'm from Texas, and somewhat out in the backwoods even there. Public transportation isn't great in the city's here, and it doesn't exist at all where I live. But lets ignore that fact and assume that I lived somewhere that public transportation was possible. The ability to travel where you want, when you want, adds tangible benefit to your life. It may give you added time at home with your family. It may allow you to attend functions that would otherwise be unavailable. It may allow you to get your sick kid to the hospital on time.

What would I GAIN by adding alcohol and drugs to my life? I ALREADY have fun. LOTS of it, and much more than fun. And I have it sober, I don't have a hangover afterwards, and I remember everything I did.

I fully grant your right to look at the cost benefit analysis and decided that you can't have as much fun unless your brain chemistry is altered. It's your choice to make. But then, I also grant that it's your right to spend all of your paycheck on the lottery if you think that's going to improve your life.

Life is all about choices. On this issue, I don't regret mine one bit.

Shadowfury333 wrote:Yes, I have been living under a rock, so what? It's a comfy rock.

Ha! Good response!

Kilarin wrote:How many lives have you seen IMPROVED by alcohol? I certainly can't name one.

People who own beer companies.

Kilarin wrote:And I have it sober, I don't have a hangover afterwards, and I remember everything I did.

Come on. Don't distort the issue--I've been quite clear that I'm talking only about use in moderation, unless you actually think that you will experience any of this from having, for example, a few glasses of wine, in which case you would be truly mistaken.

Kilarin wrote:But from observation, I have yet to see a single person who's "fun" actually seem to have been increased due to the use of alcohol or other drugs.

Well, I had a couple of glasses of wine earlier tonight, and I can assure you that I had an even better time hanging out with some friends than if I hadn't. (That's not to say that I wouldn't have had fun, nor is it to say that the wine was required to have fun, but having a couple of glasses of wine contributed to having an even greater time.) So now you have at least one person to add to your list.

Unless the point of your comment was just to point out that you have a group of oddball friends who have no idea how to use alcohol or drugs rationally, it seems to me that you are saying that you're completely skeptical that alcohol or any drug could conceivably increase the enjoyability of any event. Is this really the case?

Kilarin wrote:The closest I've ever come to drinking alcohol was taking nyquil

Kilarin wrote:What would I GAIN by adding alcohol and drugs to my life?

I feel as though I'm talking to somebody who is color blind, to somebody who is blue-purple color blind such that both colors just look blue to you. You might feel as though seeing the colors red through blue on the spectrum is as good as it gets. After all, you don't need to see purple to really do anything. Perhaps in the third grade, you might have accidently worn a purple shirt to school and were given a hard time about it, but since then you've learned tricks to avoid scenarios like that to the point that it is a non-issue. Now suppose that you asked me to demonstrate to you why seeing purple is valuable to me. How could I possibly explain to you the color purple or the internal novelty of seeing it if you've never seen it? I might be able to explain, by analogy, how seeing some of the other colors is neat and that purple is the same way, but ultimately there's nothing I can say to reduce a high level of skepticism without you actually seeing purple. Of course, in this case, you actually have a choice to try, say, a glass of wine, but you simply choose not to. If you really want to find out what you're missing out on, you should have a glass of wine some time. Although to be honest, I'm afraid that you would just find some way to not enjoy it.

Kilarin wrote:The ability to travel where you want, when you want, adds tangible benefit to your life. It may give you added time at home with your family. It may allow you to attend functions that would otherwise be unavailable. It may allow you to get your sick kid to the hospital on time.

Heh, unbeknownst to you, as unimaginable as it may sound, something like alcohol provides similar benefits.

For example, alcohol aids in stimulating interpersonal networking. (This is not to say that alocohol is required for interpersonal networking, just like nobody's claim has ever been to say that alocohol is required to have fun--anyone whose argument revolves around something otherwise is fishing for red herring.) But I've met people, even girls, drinking that I know I never would have met otherwise. In fact, I can think of at least two currently married couples--with kids--where husband and wife met each other via drinking. If you are looking for a tangible demonstration of how something like an alcohol or a drug might benefit somebody's life, this is it. And if it matters, although I don't know for certain, I'd imagine that they had a blast meeting each other too. The fact is is that you can meet and get to know neat people that you otherwise never would have. They don't call alcohol a social lubricant for nothing.

Jeff250 wrote:For example, alcohol aids in stimulating interpersonal networking. (This is not to say that alocohol is required for interpersonal networking, just like nobody's claim has ever been to say that alocohol is required to have fun--anyone whose argument revolves around something otherwise is fishing for red herring.) But I've met people, even girls, drinking that I know I never would have met otherwise. In fact, I can think of at least two currently married couples--with kids--where husband and wife met each other via drinking. If you are looking for a tangible demonstration of how something like an alcohol or a drug might benefit somebody's life, this is it. And if it matters, although I don't know for certain, I'd imagine that they had a blast meeting each other too. The fact is is that you can meet and get to know neat people that you otherwise never would have. They don't call alcohol a social lubricant for nothing.

Yes, but that would depend on two things:
1: That you will always like the people you end up talking to. (It could be just me, but I'd consider myself to be happier if less people knew me, due to that I feel it would reduce the amount of bullying towards me. Also note that I'm still in High School)
2: That you don't overdo a relationship with that person while drinking. (Biggest example would be sleeping with that person, then waking up to realise that you were better off not to)

Jeff250 wrote:I've been quite clear that I'm talking only about use in moderation

Which is why I clarified that even on those few cases of people who use alcohol without getting drunk, I have not witnessed anything that indicated they were actually having more "fun" than I was.

Jeff250 wrote:it seems to me that you are saying that you're completely skeptical that alcohol or any drug could conceivably increase the enjoyability of any event. Is this really the case?

Exactly the case. I do not need or want my brain chemistry altered, especially not with a depressant.

Hold it, on second thought, I WILL modify the above. If I was in the old west in the late 1800's and someone was about to cut an arrow out of me with a knife. Yeah, I think a LOT of whiskey might increase the enjoyability of that event SIGNIFICANTLY.

Jeff250 wrote:I feel as though I'm talking to somebody who is color blind

It's absolutely true. I've never experienced it, so how could I know? But some things you can determine adequately from observation and research. I don't have to touch a stove to know it's hot, I don't need to try haggis to know I'm not interested.

I have observed people using alcohol, and I found those who always kept it in moderation to be the exception, and even in those cases, I didn't see anything that interested me.

I've also spoken to people who used to use alcohol and have now quit. This, of course, is a highly filtered subset, but none of them seemed to feel they were "missing out" on anything now. Quite the opposite actually.

It just seems amazing to me that someone would only be able to "fully" enjoy themselves after they had their inhibitions lowered by chemically altering their brain. But then, the crowd I usually hang out with don't drink, but we've occasionally been accused of being drunk anyway, so perhaps we just don't have a lot of inhibitions to begin with.

TIGERassault wrote:Yes, but that would depend on two things

Valid points.
For myself, the kind of people I would meet hanging out in bars probably wouldn't like ME much.

Am I really the only person on this forum above the age of 21 who doesn't drink alcohol?

Give it another three years and you won't be.

I'd rather be jaded than naive any day of the week.

In the end alcohol and drug use comes down to personal choice and knowledge of one's own limits and personality. If you're responsible and moderate with anything it won't kill you, and to assume otherwise is uninformed fearmongering.

I respect the decision not to drink, I won't try to convince anyone otherwise, but don't condemn all those who do imbibe by grouping them with alcoholics and junkies.