The real reason liberals don't criticize islam...

[Nightshade]

...is that they are cowards.

by Roger L. Simon

I have frequently been called a “chickenhawk” on Iraq and, though I am loath to admit it, my critics are basically correct – I am pretty much of a chicken… on Iraq and everything else. I have been since the seventh grade when I chickened out on a fight with Ernie Schaub in the yard of Junior High School 167 Manhattan. (There – I’ve finally said it!)

Still, I am not nearly as much of a chicken as Lawrence O’Donnell revealed himself to be on the Hugh Hewitt radio show last week.

O’Donnell was on to discuss some controversial remarks he made about Mormonism on the McLaughlin Group in reaction to Mitt Romney’s speech on the presidential candidate’s religion. Actually the remarks were more than routinely controversial - the Democratic pundit/television writer (The West Wing) launched a full-scale attack on Mormonism, branding its founding father Joseph Smith a racist and demanding Romney disassociate himself from Nineteenth Century tenets and behaviors of his faith long ago abandoned.

Now I want to be clear - I didn’t take seriously a word O’Donnell said about Romney and Mormonism on McLaughlin. It was a plain, old-fashioned political hatchet job of the most transparent sort. If Mitt Romney had been a Democrat running for President, you wouldn’t have heard word one out of O’Donnell about Mormonism or Smith. And whatever you think of Romney, the man has already served as governor of Massachusetts with no discernible control being exerted on him by the solons of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in Salt Lake. The whole thing is a non-starter and made O’Donnell seem like a political hack – and I say this as an agnostic, frustrated that Romney’s rather banal speech completely ignored the contribution of religious skeptics to America.

What interests me far more is what O’Donnell said during the following exchange at the end of his interview on Hugh’s show, in which the seemingly playful pundit showed far more about himself than he may have intended:

HH: Okay. And do you believe, would you say the same things about Mohammed as you just said about Joseph Smith?

LO’D: Oh, well, I’m afraid of what the…that’s where I’m really afraid. I would like to criticize Islam much more than I do publicly, but I’m afraid for my life if I do.

HH: Well, that’s candid.

LO’D: Mormons are the nicest people in the world. They’re not going to ever…

HH: So you can be bigoted towards Mormons, because they’ll just send you a strudel.

LO’D: They’ll never take a shot at me. Those other people, I’m not going to say a word about them.

HH: They’ll send you a strudel. The Mormons will bake you a cake and be nice to you.

LO’D: I agree.

HH: Lawrence O’Donnell, I appreciate your candor.

I appreciate O’Donnell’s candor too, but perhaps not in the way that Hugh meant. In fact, when I first read those statements, my mouth dropped open.

They are particularly disturbing if you compare the estimated number of Muslims in the world (1.5 billion) to the number of Mormons (12 million) and the likelihood of either group being responsible for, say, a bombing in the New York subway. Of course, O’Donnell is clearly aware of this – all too clearly. And he has decided to opt out.

This means he has opted out as well of a whole series of the most important questions of our time, such as are there moderate Muslims, can Islam be reformed, what is the relationship between religious doctrine and violence, what is jihad, what is dhimmitude, can true democracy exist under Islam, is it terminally expansionist in its ideology, can women and homosexuals achieve their rights under Sharia law, what happens when Sharia expands into Western society, etc.

Compare those questions to whether taxes should go up or down five percent or even to the political relevance of Mitt Romney’s Mormonism and you will see just how absurd (and dangerous) O’Donnell’s terrified off-hand comments were.

Remarks like O’Donnell’s disqualify the maker from offering any serious opinion on foreign policy ever. Without the courage of your convictions, there are no convictions worth having. Indeed, in a sense, they are not convictions at all. They are not there.

O’Donnell’s cowardice would not be interesting, however, were he not typical. O’Donnell’s kind of fear is all around us. We have it among artists who censor themselves and journalists who are afraid to speak out. These people have buried their traditional liberal values under a veneer of false tolerance and trendy cultural relativism and essentially turned liberalism on its head.

O’Donnell is no longer a liberal in the sense I understood it growing up. In fact, he runs away from defending the basic canon of liberalism without which it cannot exist – free speech. A true liberal is a man like Flemming Rose who had the courage to defend that freedom against the onslaught of opposition to the publication of the Danish cartoons. Where was O’Donnell on that? Quivering in his corner, worrying whether he will be shot? Where was O’Donnell (a man of the entertainment industry, no less) when director Theo Van Gogh was stabbed to death by an Islamist on the streets of Amsterdam for making a film critical of Islam? Busy attacking George Bush, I imagine. The courage of Rose and Van Gogh (and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq and Wafa Sultan, etc.) is paying O’Donnell’s check from the McLaughlin Group in a very real sense. He owes them all a commission.

O’Donnell’s words remind me more clearly than anything in recent days why I no longer identify as a “liberal” in its modern usage. It has become a meaningless term. I may be a chicken, but I am not a coward. I have criticized Islam often and I will continue to do so.

[Nightshade]

And sharia creep is happening everywhere:

Tax-supported Normandale Community College in Bloomington, Minn., has a \"sign requesting that shoes be removed\" and a barrier that divides men's and women's \"prayer spaces,\" writes Katherine Kersten of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune.

A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled \"Hijaab [covering] and Modesty\" was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior.

They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not \"be such that it is heard.\"

\"Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam,\" the tract read in part. \"It should not be that you accept what entertains your desires and leave what opposes your desires; this is from the manners of the Jews.\"

\"[T]he Jews and the Christians\" are described as \"the enemies of Allaah's religion.\"

The document adds: \"Remember that you will never succeed while you follow these people.\"

A poster on the room's door advertised a local lecture on \"marriage from an Islamic perspective,\" with \"useful tips for marital harmony from the Prophet's ... life.\" Other fliers invited students to join the Normandale Islamic Forum, or participate in Ramadan celebrations.

One thing was missing from the meditation room: evidence of any faith but Islam. No Bible, no crucifix, no Torah.

[Ferno]

hey, thanks for the laugh man. I needed it.

[TIGERassault]

I read the first line and didn't even bother to read anything else.
But if you send this to Fox news, they're sure to treat it as some remarkable new discovery by the top scientists in the world!

[TechPro]

Hey TB, got any links for these things? ... (hint, hint)

[Gooberman]

Thank you for the Self-Insight.

[Ferno]

Hey TB, got any links for these things? ... (hint, hint)

don't worry about it dude.. he's our resident islamophobe.

[TechPro]

Hey TB, got any links for these things? ... (hint, hint)

don't worry about it dude.. he's our resident islamophobe.

I know, I was just hoping he might be able to substantiate his phobia.

[Ferno]

haha. good luck with that one!

[MD-2389]

*random islamophobic crap*

[Ferno]

I bet ya if anyone showed him a qu'ran, he would melt like the wicked witch of the west.

[roid]

i like this thread now
*grabs a stick and joins the mob beating ThunderBunny*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

[Gooberman]

*grabs a stick and joins the mob beating ThunderBunny*

Intolerance....will not be tolerated.

[MD-2389]

I nominate that any Thunderbunny thread should be moved to my forum, where it can be mocked by everyone that wants postcount++.

[Nightshade]

The funny thing is that alot of you would probably be hanged or stoned to death under islamic law.

Hey. Ya'll are welcome to walk into Saudi Arabia and smoke pot or do whatever it is you wanna do and see if it's true or not.

[Ferno]

hey TB.. here's your rifle, here's your uniform, here's your parachute. Go nuts!

[roid]

The funny thing is that alot of you would probably be hanged or stoned to death under islamic law.

Hey. Ya'll are welcome to walk into Saudi Arabia and smoke pot or do whatever it is you wanna do and see if it's true or not.

While if you did some of the things that are normal and tollerated in the Arab world - in terrorism-scared America you would be shot dead on the spot for being scary.

enjoy your huggy pillow, you terrified American.

[Bet51987]

The funny thing is that alot of you would probably be hanged or stoned to death under islamic law.

Especially if your a women. Anyway, I'm on your side and just can't believe the people who trust Islam.

Bee

[roid]

We hung Saddam under Bush law

[d3jake]

Especially if your a women. Anyway, I'm on your side and just can't believe the people who trust Islam.

Bee

Arg! I hate people that will assume that all people of a certain group think the same way. Yes, in some\\most cases it proves true. But if you think about it, in Christianity, you have those that think that if you don't convert to their side, then you're SOL-KTHXBYE. And then there are those that will talk, and chat with you about beliefs, etc, and if at the end of the day, you don't want to convert, that's fine with them. The point is that you have not met every single Muslim, or every different thought camp of the religion, to assume that they're all the same would be to assume that all birds can't only waddle around, and can swim really good. Sure it may be true about some of them, but not all.

[MD-2389]

The funny thing is that alot of you would probably be hanged or stoned to death under islamic law.

Especially if your a women. Anyway, I'm on your side and just can't believe the people who trust Islam.

Bee

And if you think that every muslim is out to hang or stone you, then you are an idiot. I hate to break it to you, but not every religion is perfect. I'm sure that if you went back a few hundred years, and met the crusaders, you'd have similar feelings about them. Remember one thing: extremeists, no matter how much they may say, do not represent the whole. Do the Phelps represent all of christianity?

[Ferno]

Especially if your a women. Anyway, I'm on your side and just can't believe the people who trust Islam.

Bee

the arabs I know would be absolutely offended if they heard this.

[Nightshade]

My opinion:

All religion is garbage...but not all people brought up under it are.

However- there are some religions (established cults- which is what they really are) that are more dangerous to a person's freedom to think and do what they want than others.

islam is far more of a virulent mind poison than others at the current time.

[TIGERassault]

Anyway, I'm on your side

Protip: If you ever find yourself agreeing with ThunderBunny, at any point, then you know you've done something wrong.

My opinion:
All religion is garbage...but not all people brought up under it are.
However- there are some religions (established cults- which is what they really are) that are more dangerous to a person's freedom to think and do what they want than others.
islam is far more of a virulent mind poison than others at the current time.

Keywords: freedom, mind poison, cults.
Yup, it's a troll alright.

[Bet51987]

Arg! I hate people that will assume that all people of a certain group think the same way. Yes, in some\\most cases it proves true. But if you think about it, in Christianity, you have those that think that if you don't convert to their side, then you're SOL-KTHXBYE.

It’s not some, it’s most. In the latest episode, thousands and thousands called for the execution of a teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammed but I haven't heard of any Christians getting even ticked when seeing a likeness of Jesus. I'm only concerned with the present, not the past, so what the Crusaders did has nothing to do with this.

...and if you think that every Muslim is out to hang or stone you, then you are an idiot. I hate to break it to you, but not every religion is perfect.

I'm sorry but I think the real idiot is you if you continue to defend Islam as a good religion that promotes tolerance and equality. Since you were being so impolite, I wonder if you’re either Islamic or uneducated.

the Arabs I know would be absolutely offended if they heard this.

Your right. I would be stripped of my clothing, raped, stoned, and then beheaded just like all the rest.

…islam is far more of a virulent mind poison than others at the current time.

How come only you and I can see this?

Bee

[TIGERassault]

In the latest episode, thousands and thousands called for the execution of a teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammed but I haven't heard of any Christians getting even ticked when seeing a likeness of Jesus.

Whoa, BIG difference there! Muslims believe that one shouldn't make pictures or objects that are a representation of Mohammad, while Christians don't have an equivilent for Jesus.
There are many cases of Christians executing people of ridiculous equivilents too, remember. Most well-known one is witchcraft. Heck, even Christians did the same thing as this Muslim case towards a man because he invented the first robot.

Also, I'd like to see the scource of this 'thousands and thousands' figure you stated.

Since you were being so impolite, I wonder if you’re either Islamic or uneducated.

OH THE IRONY OF THIS SENTENCE, IT HUTS SO BAD!

Your right. I would be stripped of my clothing, raped, stoned, and then beheaded just like all the rest.

Riiiight. And you heard this from where, exactly?

Also, "your right."? His right what? His right hand is resting on the table? His right leg broke when he kicked the dumpster? His right-brained son ate a mushroom? You make no sense!
(Yes, I shall continue to pester you about this until you finally figure out what the words "your" and "you're" mean.)

[Bet51987]

Hey, you know what else?
Canada also has meeting areas that could potentially breeding ground or criminal minds. I say we bomb Canada.
It's the American way.

As far as I can tell, that isn't practiced in American schools anymore. Boys and girls are generally given equal oppertunities in eductaion.
Unfortunately, the Media prefers to have things otherwise...

Whoa, BIG difference there! Muslims believe that one shouldn't make pictures or objects that are a representation of Mohammad, while Christians don't have an equivilent for Jesus.
There are many cases of Christians executing people of ridiculous equivilents too, remember. Most well-known one is witchcraft. Heck, even Christians did the same thing as this Muslim case towards a man because he invented the first robot.
Also, I'd like to see the scource of this 'thousands and thousands' figure you stated.

OH THE IRONY OF THIS SENTENCE, IT HUTS SO BAD!

Also, "your right."? His right what? His right hand is resting on the table? His right leg broke when he kicked the dumpster? His right-brained son ate a mushroom? You make no sense!
(Yes, I shall continue to pester you about this until you finally figure out what the words "your" and "you're" mean.)

First, I think you need to check your own grammar and spelling errors that I highlighted in bold underline before you criticize mine. I can show you a lot more but personally I have no interest in playing your "pretending to be a teacher" game.

Secondly, I’m really getting sick of your corrections to my grammar. I make mistakes and I will make more, but what I don’t need is grammar correction from an arrogant individual like you.

Please honor the PM that I sent you several weeks ago.

Bee

[TechPro]

…islam is far more of a virulent mind poison than others at the current time.

How come only you and I can see this?

Bee

Me thinks both of you could use a couple Social Studies lessons.

Fact of the matter is, the religion of Islam is currently known to this world in multiple variations and interpretations. Like many things in this world, the real evil is things taken in an extreme. There are billions of good and upstanding people who would never hurt you for any reason and are Muslim (adhere to the Islam religion). In parts of the world where there are the most Muslims, there are whole communities, even countries that are predominantly Muslim. In some of those places, over the generations "off-shoot" groups (what we'd normally call 'extremists') have formed and some included influential and powerful persons in those locations. These 'extremist' groups are the ones that have been causing most of the problem.

Bet,
As for your statements about your personal danger if you are over there (being as you are female) is very real in some places ... BUT NOT BECAUSE OF MUSLIMS. The problem is because of some of the rules and laws of the societies. Some of these rules and laws have existed in some of these places since long before the United States even existed. In the same way the United States used to practice (and accept) slavery, other places of the world have practices that you and I would normally consider very backward of unjust.

Don't you understand? You're blaming what we'd call "backward social practices" on a religion which does not require that. It's the people and the social structures they've had for generations. If you dis-agree, I suggest you look a bit closer at the religion you're blaming for the actions of individuals.

Oh, by the way (since you may be wondering) ... I belong to a religion that I believe to be Christian (but some don't agree). What reason would I stick up for a religion that the perpetrators of 9/11 were members of? Simple. 9/11 was perpetrated by extremist people, not by their religion. To blame Islam for that would be the same as blaming people of German descent for what Hitler did, or blaming people of Japanese descent for the attack on Pearl Harbor. It's not fair and not right. It's called bigotry and I will have nothing to do with it.

[roid]

Arg! I hate people that will assume that all people of a certain group think the same way. Yes, in some\\most cases it proves true. But if you think about it, in Christianity, you have those that think that if you don't convert to their side, then you're SOL-KTHXBYE.

It’s not some, it’s most. In the latest episode, thousands and thousands called for the execution of a teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammed but I haven't heard of any Christians getting even ticked when seeing a likeness of Jesus. I'm only concerned with the present, not the past, so what the Crusaders did has nothing to do with this.

...and if you think that every Muslim is out to hang or stone you, then you are an idiot. I hate to break it to you, but not every religion is perfect.

I'm sorry but I think the real idiot is you if you continue to defend Islam as a good religion that promotes tolerance and equality. Since you were being so impolite, I wonder if you’re either Islamic or uneducated.

the Arabs I know would be absolutely offended if they heard this.

Your right. I would be stripped of my clothing, raped, stoned, and then beheaded just like all the rest.

…islam is far more of a virulent mind poison than others at the current time.

How come only you and I can see this?

Bee

goto Indonesia

come back

shut up

[Bet51987]

Techpro.

I understand what your saying but I never mentioned Muslims. After Christmas I will have more time to tell you why I hate Islam so much.

Have a nice Holiday.

Bee

[Bet51987]

Roid...

I may not come back since Islamic fundamentalism is growing there. Thanks anyway for looking after my health.

Bee

[MD-2389]

I'm sorry but I think the real idiot is you if you continue to defend Islam as a good religion that promotes tolerance and equality. Since you were being so impolite, I wonder if you’re either Islamic or uneducated.

ROFL

Since you made the accusation, PROVE that EVERY SINGLE muslim is out to kill you. You made the claim, now back it up.

And while you're at it, go look up the definition for radical and moderate, then come back. You need a reality check girl, and you need it quick. You're about as ignorant and uneducated as they come.

[Gooberman]

This thread left a keyboard impression upon my forehead....more so due to the latter then the former.

[Duper]

MD, I don't think she means the individuals, but the religion and what it teaches itself.

I worked with a gal from Iran and we talked quite a bit. There is an extreme faction of Islam that is dangerous and is being largely taught in Terran, their capital. She said that it represents about 1/3 of Islam and it scared her to death. One of the reasons she and her family came to the USA.


/me passes Goob some bactine for the forehead. ;D

[TIGERassault]

Secondly, I’m really getting sick of your corrections to my grammar. I make mistakes and I will make more, but what I don’t need is grammar correction from an arrogant individual like you.

Considering that you aren't even making an attempt to try learn, yes, you do need a grammar correction.

Please honor the PM that I sent you several weeks ago.

No.


Also, how do you spell 'oppertunity' and 'equivilent'?

[Sirius]

Opportunity and equivalent.

Dictionary, sir. And do remember the proverb \"people in glass houses should not throw stones\".

[TIGERassault]

Dictionary, sir.

I did. Not that it helped much.

[Cuda68]

Religion is only good for starting wars and turning friends against each other. Look at this thread. It's turning into a disgusting free for all. Organized religion should be outlawed.

[Nightshade]

\"[A Muslim wishing a Christian 'Merry Christmas'] is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on.\" --Islam (online) Q & A

Praise be to Allah.

It is not permissible for a Muslim to eat things that the Jews and Christians make on their festivals, or what they give him as a gift on their festivals, because that is cooperating with them and joining in with them in this evil.

It is not permissible for him to congratulate them on their festivals in any way whatsoever, because that implies approval of their festival and not denouncing them, and helping them to manifest their symbols and propagate their innovation, and sharing their happiness during their festivals, which are innovated festivals that are connected to false beliefs that are not approved of in Islam.

And Allah knows best.

http://www.islamqa.com/ln/php/the_file.php?ln=eng

[roid]

Religion is only good for starting wars and turning friends against each other. Look at this thread. It's turning into a disgusting free for all. Organized religion should be outlawed.

if you want to blame Thunderbunny's fear on religion. I don't know if Thunderbunny is religious - i think he's said he isn't. But i do know his fear is being FUELED by Christians - they are the ones pulling the anti-islam strings. Oblivious, he remains a tool.
An armchair nationaist (arn't they all), Nothing says "I love America" more than "I hate Allah".


As for Bett, she's just having trouble handling her dualistic life and is overcompensating with anti-muslim hate coz it makes her feel more that she fits in with her Christian peers. Coz nothing says "i love Jesus" more than "I hate Allah".

So yeah, religion is indirectly to blame on both accounts.