DescentBB

Christ, we're really going to do this aren't we.

Apparently America only wants old white guys for president.

Yep. It's sad that the Dems cannot put up someone who's not a old white guy, who's been in office before, and who's showing shades of dementia around his edges to boot. I also saw the rumor floating around that he might pick Hillary for VP. Good God I hope not! I think the Dem Party has NOT learned their lesson from 2016 and that Trump may win yet again. Unless the coronavirus kills the economy and his chances, there's always that. They're just too chicken to put up someone outside the normal Dem box. I was kind of hopeful for Buttigieg, but then I saw this little exchange during the Iowa Caucuses and saw the handwriting on the wall for the poor guy. I mean, if many Dem voters are as bigoted and stupid as she is, as are most of the Trump voters, there is no hope for our country anymore. What say you vision. I remember you saying Biden wouldn't even get close to the nomination.

It's awful. This is where my voter apathy kicks in. I've never voted Democrat for president, but I would have voted for Sanders. A Biden nomination is a sick joke played on the country.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:14 pmWhat say you vision. I remember you saying Biden wouldn't even get close to the nomination.

I don't remember saying that, but I do remember saying Trump will win in a landslide if Biden is tapped as nominee.

OK, I knew it was something along those lines. I would've voted for Buttigieg or Sanders, but Biden now is just a kick Trump out of office vote. What a waste. So basically the Dems have pretty much shot themselves in the foot siding with Biden. Plus, knowing Trump's dirty tricks, it makes me wonder if all that fake dirt about the Bidens that was supposedly fed to Giuliani by the Russians in Ukraine will surface as a weapon from the Trump camp once Biden locks in the nomination?

My guess is Biden would probably win against Trump solely due to anti-Trump solidarity, but I really do think he's the worst candidate Dems could've chosen, and a win isn't at all a given. It's going to be a shitty general election because Biden has no vision. Hard to get excited about "yeah, we're not going to do anything to address anything that led to the other guy, but at least I'm not the other guy!"

It aggravates me how it all happened, too. Biden enters as the front runner, then basically falls off after the debates started because everyone sees he's sundowning. He doesn't get the scrutiny a top tier candidate normally gets for months and really only campaigns in one state. He wins SC and then EVERYONE drops out and rallies around him as THE GUY. And within the span of 10 days he's the heavy favorite in delegates. I honestly don't think anyone has really taken a good look at him, he's just THE GUY now and they want to beat Trump. My guess is they'll keep him out of the spotlight as much as they can and just let pundits talk about him being THE GUY because people are going to see what they saw last year when he faded.

My last remaining hope is that the head to head debate next Sunday wakes people up. But that's a bit of a long shot.

I'm wondering how many times the vid of Biden bragging how he got the Ukraine prosecutor fired will be played:


I guess you Dems really love your crooked politicians.

Vander wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:18 pmIt aggravates me how it all happened, too. Biden enters as the front runner, then basically falls off after the debates started because everyone sees he's sundowning. He doesn't get the scrutiny a top tier candidate normally gets for months and really only campaigns in one state. He wins SC and then EVERYONE drops out and rallies around him as THE GUY. And within the span of 10 days he's the heavy favorite in delegates. I honestly don't think anyone has really taken a good look at him, he's just THE GUY now and they want to beat Trump. My guess is they'll keep him out of the spotlight as much as they can and just let pundits talk about him being THE GUY because people are going to see what they saw last year when he faded.

My last remaining hope is that the head to head debate next Sunday wakes people up. But that's a bit of a long shot.

It's as though no one learned anything in 2016. The Democratic Party has some notion that weak moderates fare better in the general election. Consequently, the Party leaders pull as many strings as they can to ensure that such a candidate wins the nomination, even at the expense of the legitimacy of the nominee.

woodchip wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:14 am I guess you Dems really love your crooked politicians.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/1 ... rts-126808
Disingenuous as always.

woodchip wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:14 am
I guess you Dems really love your crooked politicians.

Here's better description of the "things" surrounding Skokin. HE was the one who was the corrupt politician it turns out. Good riddance.

https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukraine ... 81445.html

Jeff250 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:11 am It's as though no one learned anything in 2016. The Democratic Party has some notion that weak moderates fare better in the general election. Consequently, the Party leaders pull as many strings as they can to ensure that such a candidate wins the nomination, even at the expense of the legitimacy of the nominee.

Welp, I think with Biden they're going to get burned yet again because he's not exciting, not going to get out the Independent vote and is not an improvement over the bland status quo that the Dems seems to be stuck in. I wonder how many times that happens before they get a clue?

I really wish neither Biden or Sanders had even run in the first place. There were better candidates in the race right up through the middle, but in our current 24 hour news cycle that only ever spends 30 seconds on a story, reaching big name recognition is a ★■◆●. I swear the only reason these two are in the contest is because they have been in it several times before and have accumulated name recognition from all the previous runs.

Krom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:14 pmI really wish neither Biden or Sanders had even run in the first place.

Agreed. All of my friends that identify as Democrats had Warren as their first pick. Biden and Sanders were at the bottoms of their lists. If we are going to have a status quo, corporate Democrat, I wish it were Buttigieg. He's such a good speaker -- and handsome!

I liked him too, but this country is too full of uniformed bigots for a man like him to win a national election.

What's crazy is we're going into a months long illustration of how shitty our social/health insurance systems are, and Dems are all in with the guy that wants to keep things as they are.

It's frustrating when a majority of Americans support things like medicare for all and marijuana legalization, but yet I'm going to have to vote for a fringe third party yet again just to have any representation.

Biden's in trouble if even a bumbling Trump can gain some support from a few Dems and Independents during this pandemic crisis. Good Gawd, I'm starting to see visions of another 4 years under the Orange Napoleon's reign because the Dems were too short sighted and stodgy to take a chance on a new face with new ideas.

https://news.yahoo.com/voters-behind-tr ... 19015.html

This ★■◆● is why you vote Bernie.

It's going to be awesome when November rolls around and we haven't implemented the entirely foreseeable necessity of universal mail in voting because one party doesn't want people to vote and the other is ineffectual.

That's by design. Democrats are just "Republican-Lite." It's the whole good-cop, bad-cop thing they've been doing for years. We've had decades to fix out voting system so ya gotta wonder why it doesn't get done whenever one party hold all three branches of government.

We've seen this exact play run in 2016. We know what's going to happen in November.

If it's not going to be a re-run event-for-event, I'll be very suprised.

RIP Bernie Sanders' foreign policy. He's the only candidate I've ever been able to vote for whose critique so closely aligns with my own in its rejection of the bipartisan consensus on foreign policy.

Vander wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:47 amHe's the only candidate I've ever been able to vote for whose critique so closely aligns with my own in its rejection of the bipartisan consensus on foreign policy.

Sanders is exceptional in a lot of ways. Too many to count, really. One of those super rare public servants that was never corrupted by the corporate political machine. I'll probably be dead before we see another person of such integrity run for president.

Biden has only one choice now that will make or break his chances and that will be who he chooses as his running mate. He's indicated that he's going to choose a woman. For the love of God, it had better not be Hillary Clinton.

I'm biased, but If he's smart, he chooses Warren. That's the fissure he needs to heal, and where the future of the party is headed. Even though a lot of Sanders supporters dislike Warren because she didn't endorse Sanders when she bailed. My guess at the time was that she withheld the endorsement to angle for VP, but that endorsing Sanders would've made her even more valuable/significant as VP.

But in the "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" vein, he'll probably choose Klobuchar or Harris.

Vander wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:43 pmMy guess at the time was that she withheld the endorsement to angle for VP, but that endorsing Sanders would've made her even more valuable/significant as VP.

Interesting take, I hadn't thought about that. A friend of mine and I were talking about the VP pick this morning and how Warren is the only reasonable choice.

My conservative sister indicated she'd be OK with Warren, which is saying a lot. I would too, which would help to water down the old white man stodginess of Biden.

Mario Cuomo in 2020. I wish.

Not only 'Old White Guy", but "Dirty Old White Guy". Damn these guys in power can't keep their hands to themselves. Trump and Kavanaugh were bad enough, now Biden? Even worse, most of the mainstream press hasn't said one peep about it, making it look like they favor Biden. Already my conservative sister is bitching about Biden, saying he's getting a free pass by the press. I'd already read about it in our local paper and saw it on Yahoo News, so I told her it's out there. Still didn't placate her. She's now latched onto the 'press favors Biden conspiracy theory', like I'm sure most right wingers have already done. Never mind that their exalted leader is the king of groping and womanizing.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/27/21195935/ ... allegation

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:51 am...saying he's getting a free pass by the press.

Maybe the press isn't reporting is because no one gives a ★■◆●? Clearly, sexual misconduct does not prevent a person from being elected/appointed to high ranking positions in government. Why should I care? Why would the press report about stories no one cares about? Everyone knows Biden is super creepy with women, but no one cares enough to vote for other candidates, so whatever.

I don't give a damn either. Just thought I'd see what people here thought about the issue. I've seen Biden as creepy towards women too, on TV even. A little too touchy feely for my taste, but hey, he looks like a monk compared to Trump. My sister is just being a stupid partisan, which is irksome because no matter the facts, she won't listen to reason. She even talks about how Kavanaugh was a victim because the accusers weren't believable. Conservatives who bring this up before the next election are massive hypocrites because they took the step, voted for and elected, a well known sexual predator who even bragged about his exploits.

vision wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:33 pm

Vander wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:43 pmMy guess at the time was that she withheld the endorsement to angle for VP, but that endorsing Sanders would've made her even more valuable/significant as VP.

Interesting take, I hadn't thought about that. A friend of mine and I were talking about the VP pick this morning and how Warren is the only reasonable choice.

I'd strongly consider voting Democrat this election if Biden chose Warren. What I can't do is vote for the Democratic Party regardless of what they say or do. If I vote for them no matter what they do, then why would they ever do anything different, and how is anything going to ever change?

Dems need lean in and start handing out Biden 2020 - He sucks, but not nearly as bad as Trump bumper stickers.

*edit

Jeff250 wrote:What I can't do is vote for the Democratic Party regardless of what they say or do. If I vote for them no matter what they do, then why would they ever do anything different, and how is anything going to ever change?

Personally, I think the place for this was/is the primary. Pushing for ranked choice voting is probably the next step in this regard, for getting a more accurate result in line with voter wishes. But in terms of general election message voting, especially this year, I believe there's a much more important message that needs to be sent. The rejection of Trumpism has to be thorough and unambiguous.

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:52 amPersonally, I think the place for this was/is the primary. Pushing for ranked choice voting is probably the next step in this regard, for getting a more accurate result in line with voter wishes. But in terms of general election message voting, especially this year, I believe there's a much more important message that needs to be sent. The rejection of Trumpism has to be thorough and unambiguous.

The only way to reject Trump is to vote for Biden? Not even by voting for a candidate even more unlike Trump? Like, I get why the Democratic Party would be trying to push this dichotomy, but why are you?

edit:

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:52 amPersonally, I think the place for this was/is the primary.

This is a bit silly for someone who doesn't identify as a Democrat in the first place. The only way I am to signal my values is to join a party who has no history of representing them and participate in their primary?

I would feel better about this idea that the general election should be all practical and not about signalling values if the primaries were actually all about signalling values. But voters in the primaries are already practical, voting according to the perceived general electability of the candidates. To motivate the results of a party's primary, you have to not be willing to vote for its nominee in the general election if that nominee doesn't represent you. Otherwise there will be no practical reason for voters to consider your values in the primaries.

Jeff250 wrote:The only way to reject Trump is to vote for Biden? Not even by voting for a candidate even more unlike Trump? Like, I get why the Democratic Party would be trying to push this dichotomy, but why are you?

That is my opinion, yes. I really do get that not voting for Biden isn't a vote for Trump. But there are moral ramifications when refusing to choose the lesser of two evils and allowing the greater evil to win.

I don't see this election as the regular toss up between the two wings of the corporatist party. The current incarnation of the GOP simply has to be removed from power, ideally with their proverbial heads on a spike as a warning for the future. And if the only path to that right now is the current incarnation of the DNC, so be it.

If you think you'll find solace in remaining aloof, have at it. Not me.

I also subscribe to the theory that a vote for someone other than Biden is at the end of the day a vote for Trump.

Personally I think Biden (and Sanders) belongs in a well earned and comfortable retirement instead of in back to work in the oval office, but that is the card we have been dealt.

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:57 pmI don't see this election as the regular toss up between the two wings of the corporatist party. The current incarnation of the GOP simply has to be removed from power, ideally with their proverbial heads on a spike as a warning for the future. And if the only path to that right now is the current incarnation of the DNC, so be it.

I get this sentiment. I was a lifelong Republican and I've never voted for a Democratic president (I did not vote for Clinton or Trump in 2016). As a Californian whose vote doesn't mean much I'm actually considering voting for Biden (yuck) simply because of the messaging you outlined. The Republican Party doesn't stand for anything except smash-and-grab politics and it really is destroying the county -- literally. People are dying now because of reactionary government instead of proactive governance. If Biden gets us closer to that mark, so be it. Still, I think the Democratic Party is s#!t.

Any party that didn't learn it's lesson from the 2016 election IS sh*t and the Dems definitely didn't learn squat. They need a good smack on the head. However, like you vision, I've voted for Republicans in the past, even though I'm not a registered member of the party. But the current incarnation of the Republican Party has gone waaaaay past that point now, into a zone where I can't ever envision myself voting for them. They've metastasized their old core beliefs into a moldering cesspool of rot that's nothing but literally a pile of foul filth. Here's a pretty good opinion piece about the top Republican enabler of this current cesspool.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020 ... r-in-chief

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:57 pm But there are moral ramifications when refusing to choose the lesser of two evils and allowing the greater evil to win.

Your argument would only seem to apply to states where there is any competition in the first place. In states without competition, which comprise most states, all you're doing by voting is signaling your values anyways, so you might as well signal the right ones by voting for a candidate that actually represents your values. But I believe that even in states where there is competition, those are the best states to be willing to vote for a candidate who represents your values because it means that there are election consequences for candidates who do not support them. You can't be surprised when the Democratic Party nominates mediocre candidates when you keep voting for them!

Suppose that Biden does have the wherewithal to pick Warren--would you credit his choice of Warren over a moderate due to your willingness to vote for any Democrat no matter what they say or do?