Nothing Gringo...

[Fusion pimp]

I was asking Will.

Bee

That was my point, Bet.. you didn't need to ask(again). Will has made his position very clear. You simply need to pay attention.

[Bold Deceiver]

Yes, the more the merrier. But I want to make it legally easy for anyone who wants a better life for himself, his wife, and children, to live here in peace. I still don't get that kind of message from Wills posts. Bee

Bet --

I think it's fair to wish for living in peace. But you cannot divorce yourself from your remarks, the ones associating prejudice with Will, by invoking what might have been changed by facial expression or tonal differences. You write well -- I think there are a more than a few here your senior(s) who wish they had the talent -- but can we say hey: it reads one way but I meant it another way?

I write for a living. I'm a piker at it, but I do ok. So here's my thinking... always assume that your words are taken for face value. When you write (and maybe you will, one day, and people will pay for it) your written words will cause you to, oftentimes, back-up and redact -- or at least edit. I do it every day -- unless of course I'm disciplining Ferno or Birdseye (just kidding ... gents). My own technique -- and I'm not sure it works as often as I'd like -- is to write what I'm feeling == maybe emotionally; then backup, delete, and rephrase in a way that won't cause the wrong impression. Remember your audience and your ... subject. Take my internet opinion for what it's worth.

I don't want to make this about Will -- he's probably completely embarrassed that we're talking about him. But here's the deal. I know you would never stand here and call Will a racist for his view against illegal immigration, because you were raised better than that. Will Robinson at the family dinner table would be great evening with a person of challenging intellect -- even if you don't agree with his views.

Now - make no mistake. Don't ever equivocate when are certain you are right. Chances are, though, it will be far more difficult for you then. These things always seem to present themselves at times when it's far more convenient to chuckle and move on without being noticed. All I can say is, if you see it, call it for what it is. Right then.

Just be circumspect and certain. Then, it will be a good moment.

BD

[Genghis]

What bothers me more then the issue itself is why the issue became a "problem" in the first place.

Illegal imigration has always been a problem in this country. Suddenly, it's capturing attention and instigating some very extreme actions. Mind you at a time when unemployment is down and the economy (by word of the gov.) is up.

So my question is (amoung others), What sparked all this attention on the issue?

I've been wondering the same thing. Did the problem just get worse in the last couple of months?

I think what Kilarin says makes a lot of sense, but then again I suspect he reads Bruce Schneier so he's probably educated on the subject of security. This isn't a problem that can be "patched;" we need to change the legal and economic dynamics that lie at its roots.

Even if we did build a barrier, how much are we willing to have our taxes raised to construct, maintain, and monitor the fence ad infinitum. Building the fence is not the expensive part.

[Kilarin]

I think what Kilarin says makes a lot of sense, but then again I suspect he reads Bruce Schneier so he's probably educated on the subject of security.

Ha! guilty as charged. That obvious huh? Schneier makes a lot of sense on MANY topics.

[Will Robinson]

....But I want to make it legally easy for anyone who wants a better life for himself, his wife, and children, to live here in peace. I still don't get that kind of message from Wills posts.

Bee

The only actual course of action you proposed was to allow anyone in who "works hard, wants to live in peace and care for their family". I tried to show you that we need more than that as a requirement but you don't seem to want to look that deeply into the situation you just know what would be nice for everyone concerned. Since we don't live in a perfect world I hope you will try to look for a practical solution instead of a perfect one.

I didn't mean to wield a big stick but when you repeatedly opposed my position and even mischaracterized it, but didn't really address the issues I raised I got a little testy and decided to drive it home.
I promise I would have responded the same way in person but you wouldn't have been intimidated or felt bullied by my response since I would have had the luxury of using more than just text to convey my thoughts.

I would love to see our borders secured to the point that crossing them illegally would usually result in arrest and deportation. Once things are that secure then you can bring in all the workers you want as long as we can sustain their impact.
Doing it my way would result in higher wages and better conditions for the immigrants. Less cost to the government for social programs and higher security for the nation. Not to mention our lawmakers would actually be enforcing the laws instead of trying to figure the best way to ignore those laws to gain votes....
If all that also raises the cost of labor in some markets then so be it. It's a better investment than we are making now financing the status quo...

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." -Sir Winston Churchill

[Bet51987]

Ok BD. I'll try to post better than I have. Maybe think a longer time before pushing the submit button. I can't guarantee I will, but I'll try or maybe use more emoticons and I would never call Will a racist here or in real life because I don't think that of him.

Will, I'm a little sensitive to the big stick for a personal reason and it puts me on the offensive. In real life I'm much different and your conversation would not have gotten a reaction from me. I am more a listener and observer than a talker.

I don't know what to do for our borders but your opinion conflicts with the feelings I have for a family who wants it better. Believe me, I understand what you are saying and I know you are right but I just wish there was a better way.

Bettina

[Bold Deceiver]

I don't know what to do for our borders but your opinion conflicts with the feelings I have for a family who wants it better. Believe me, I understand what you are saying ... but I just wish there was a better way. Bettina

You're posting is fine ... Hey regarding finding a better way -- I do too. The better way (best way ?) is found through the exchange of ideas. Marketplace of ideas and all of that. Keep it up.

BD

[ccb056]

\"There are jobs out there that Americans won't do, so we have to hire illegal immigrants\" is complete bull★■◆●.

First of all, every single job avaliable, I can gaurantee you an american will do.

Second, the statement doesnt make an ounce of sense. Now, lets think about it. You want to make all of these spics American's right? Well, if they are doing \"the jobs that Americans won't do\", where do you think they will be working after the become Americans? Duh, they will be working at the same job. These Spics tuned Americans are now doing jobs you said Americans would never do.

The fact is, people who say there are jobs that American's will never do are just stupid sh!theads that don't know what they are talking about.

[/rant]

[Kilarin]

honestly, the racial epithets are NOT helping you make your point. Unless you really MEAN to say that you are only intrested in the illegal immigration issue because you just don't like hispanics. Which is a sad, and uninteresting, point of view.

[ccb056]

Without them, the entire thread dies, my post was the endall of this topic.

[Will Robinson]

Without them, the entire thread dies, my post was the endall of this topic.

[DCrazy]

honestly, the racial epitaphs are NOT helping you make your point.

I'm sorry to pull a Mobius here, but you caught me chuckling... an "epitaph" is the phrase on your tombstone. You're thinking of "epithet".

[Kilarin]

an "epitaph" is the phrase on your tombstone. You're thinking of "epithet".

Ha! No appology necessary, thanks for the correction, my spelling is notoriously bad. Sad thing is, in this case, I actually Googled "Racial epitaph", and got oodles of hits. I should have gone to dictionary.com.