illegal immigration

[VonVulcan]

\"Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country
protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of
illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S. might
protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country
and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly
understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house and that when you discover me in
your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, \"I've made all the beds
and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've
done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest
(except for when I broke into your house).\"

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add
me to your family's insurance plan and provide other benefits to me and
to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is
hard-working and honest, (except for that breaking in part). If you try
to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will
picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and
I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest
... um, except for . well, you know.

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only
a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about
it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being
anti-housebreaker.

Did I miss anything? Does this sound reasonable to you? If it d oes,
grab a sign and go picket something. If this sounds insane to you, call
your senators and enlighten them because they are stumbling in the
darkness right now and really need your help.\"

[Jeff250]

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

What argument are you going to give to the illegal immigrant to stop protesting and leave this country?

Because it's against the law to stay? Big whoop-de-do. You've already demonstrated yourself by speeding or music sharing that you follow the law only so long as it's enforced or so long as you don't think it's incorrect.

Because leaving is the right thing to do? Explain to the illegal immigrant where you get your ethical values from and why it is imperative that he receive ethical values from the same source and agree with you in the relevant aspects. Then explain why your ethical values mandate that doing the right thing consists in him ceasing to effectively support his family.

It's obvious why any illegal immigrant is protesting. You would be stupid to not be protesting too if you were an illegal immigrant. There is really nothing astonishing about it and no reason to make light of it as if it were some great mystery. So go ahead and write your local senator to use sheer force and kick them out of the country or run them over with tanks or whatever it is you want to be done, but don't look on with surprise when they don't leave the country by themselves without the government taking drastic action (or compromise).

[Kilarin]

We CAN have the best of both worlds.

Removing the illegal immigrants by force is something our government has proven itself incapable of doing. What it COULD do is to enforce the laws against hiring illegal immigrants. Remove the incentive to stay, and most will go home. Which is for their own good. It's not good to live in this country without any rights and being afraid to go to the police. Illegal immigrants are subject to terrible abuses.
BUT, we can't just grant an amnesty without encouraging more immigrants to come in illegally. We must STOP the flow of illegals for their own sakes and quit rewarding people who do come in illegally.

THEN, after you've reduced the problem with illegals, open up the borders. Immigrants make this country stronger. LEGAL immigrants. Let anyone who wants to come here and WORK come in. We can use them, as legal voting citizens.

This will probably require some reform in the welfare laws though. And that is NOT a racist or culturist slam. You take ANYONE from ANY culture and tell them that they can work hard and be rich beyond their wildest dreams, OR, they can sit back and do nothing and make more money in a month than they ever saw in a year in their old country, and heck yes, a large portion of the people are going to take the sit back option. I know *I* would be tempted to.

So, we have a 3 step process here:

1: make it VERY difficult and not at all cost effective to hire illegal immigrants.

2: Reform the welfare laws to the place that welfare is not an attractive option to new immigrants

3: open up the borders to anyone who is free of disease, not a criminal, and wants to be a CITIZEN of the US.

That citizenship point is important. We need CITIZENS. People who want to participate fully in our system. We need more than just people who want to make a quick buck and send it over the border. We need people who want to vote, to live here, to be a part of our country for the rest of their lives.

We make a big deal about \"spreading democracy\". There are an awful lot of people who would like to be a part of our democracy, all we have to do is let them in. It's a much better way of spreading democracy then dropping bombs on people who were never interested in this system in the first place.

[Zuruck]

I heard something funny, what to know what 90% of the Katrina cleanup force is? Mexican labor. On top of that, most likely illegal Mexican labor, it's not going to go away on it's on. Kilarin is right, make it unfavorable for corporations to hire illegals to make 4 bucks an hour, and you'll solve a lot of the problem right there. Unfortunately, Washington wants it both ways. They want to appease the corporations, so the immigrants can stay with the guest worker program, which means they aren't citizens but they can pay taxes and make money for the fat cats. Find a better solution, those people ARE going to be here

[dissent]

um, what corporations are hiring illegals to do seasonal farm and construction labor?

[Genghis]

um, what corporations are hiring illegals to do seasonal farm and construction labor?

Corporations have found a loophole. They don't dare hire illegals directly, so they subcontract to smaller businesses that do. By using illegals, these smaller businesses can get the job done for a lower price than the corporation, and the corporation gets to just pocket the difference.

ka...ching

[dissent]

um, so the corporations are colluding with the small businesses that actualy hire the illegals to reduce their costs. So how do you distinguish between greedy robber-baron corporations that are actively conspiring with small business to hire illegals from corporations that are just going out into the marketplace to locate resources for their own products at the lowest cost to them?

[Kilarin]

what corporations are hiring illegals

You will note that I did not mention corporations in specific. I want the law enforced across the board.

[dissent]

I know. Zuruck did though. I was drawing it out to highlight the distinction.