HPV vaccine

[Topher]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=2425150

Was there this same kind of debate when the hepatitis B vaccine came out?

I don't see how this would encourage underage sex when there's still dangerous and incurable diseases like HIV, hepatitis C and herpes*.

(* herpes isn't really dangerous to yourself, but it is still incurable).

[Grendel]

I don't see how this would encourage underage sex when there's still dangerous and incurable diseases like HIV, hepatitis C and herpes*.

Because you'll have to explain to your 6th grader what the vaccine is for and what it prevents..

Americans have the wierdest moral standard towards sex I've come accross so far. Explains a lot underage pregnancies -- noone talks to the kids about sex & contraception in the hope that "what they don't know they won't try." Yeah, right.

[Topher]

Right, so this wasn't a case before with the hepatitis B vaccine? Why the big hub-bub over a new addition to a conversation you already had to have.

[Grendel]

PVV is administered age 9+. The HBV can be administered infant age up -- no need to explain your kids anything..

[Will Robinson]

Americans have the wierdest moral standard towards sex I've come accross so far....

So true!
My older daughter asked what a virgin was when she was around 10. I told her the simple truth about how a man and woman had sex, she said "Eww, I'm not doing that until I'm thirty!"
I said good girl

Of course she won't wait that long but I promised her she could always count on me to tell her the straight story.
I told her I just want her to be informed and it will be up to her to make the right decisions.
I want her to know that her friends may not have parents who tell them the details and that the boys will sell their souls to get some and she's going to hear some total bull★■◆● from them so she needs to know she can tell me anything she hears or anything that pops into her head and I'll tell her the simple straight truth about it.
It's sad though because I know their inhibitions and hangups will rub off on her in spite of my attempts to help her...

[Shadowfury333]

It's sad though because I know their inhibitions and hangups will rub off on her in spite of my attempts to help her...

Thankfully for my parents, I was scared of sexuality when I was a teenager. I also never came closer than about 2 feet to a girl, so the opportunity never came up.

[Drakona]

I don't see how this would encourage underage sex when there's still dangerous and incurable diseases like HIV, hepatitis C and herpes*.

Because you'll have to explain to your 6th grader what the vaccine is for and what it prevents..

Americans have the wierdest moral standard towards sex I've come accross so far. Explains a lot underage pregnancies -- noone talks to the kids about sex & contraception in the hope that "what they don't know they won't try." Yeah, right.

I don't think that's true. I learned a little bit about sex at school in 3rd grade, more from my parents in 4th grade, and again from school in 6th grade, and again in 9th grade! (I think there might have been a bit of it in 10th grade, too...)

And I think I'm pretty typical on that score. Everybody hears about it a ton at school, and I know a lot of kids in my class had heard about it from their parents beforehand. And then there's TV and billboards and stuff. It's pretty much impossible to grow up ignorant of what sex is, or the fundamental mechanics of how it works, or even The Importance Of Protection.

The idea that teens have sex -- and irresponsibly -- because they lack education is just plain silly, if you ask me. It's like asserting that people smoke, not knowing that it carries health effects. (Hello? Does anyone not know this?)

No, the thing that I think is wonky about sex ed is exactly what that article was talking about: namely, preparing teens to have sex under the assumption that they're going to have it anyway. You hear it a lot in school - "Not that we're encouraging you to have sex or anything, but you can get free condoms from the office if you happen to need them." "Not that we expect you all to.. well, you know... but we're vaccinating you against STDs".

To respond to Topher's initial point -

I don't see how this would encourage underage sex when there's still dangerous and incurable diseases like HIV, hepatitis C and herpes*.

- it isn't the protection or lack thereof that is at issue. It is the expectation. It's not about the rationally presented facts that out-of-wedlock sex causes poverty, causes emotional issues, causes disease. Those things are far away, and I dare say it's the rare teenager who would give them serious thought. No, it's about the evident expectation. The individual is going to do it, so might as well prepare.

No parent would ever say, "You absolutely may not steal the keys out of my purse and drive the car at night. But if you just cannot help yourself... here's how to set the e-brake, you should absolutely wear your seatbelt and don't run any red lights..." The second statement belies the first and undercuts the purpose. You don't prepare someone to safely do something you don't want them to do. The safest way to keep your kid from getting into an accident is to not let him drive - and to the extent he'll listen to you, that's what you tell him. And the safest way to have sex as a teenager is to not have it.

Teens are plenty educated about sex - about the physical mechanics and the modes of protection and even the life costs (flour babies anyone?), though you can't really expect that latter point to sink in until they've grown up enough to see the effects - lovers breaking up, single parent families, messy divorces after rushed weddings...

It isn't education that's the issue. It's expectation is the issue. Folks are expected to pass high school, expected to learn to drive without causing accidents, expected to find a job. And a few fail, but by and large they succeed. But teens are not expected to refrain from sex. Rather, they are prepared for it.

That's the folly of the whole thing, if you ask me.

[Shadowfury333]

Teens are plenty educated about sex - about the physical mechanics and the modes of protection and even the life costs (flour babies anyone?), though you can't really expect that latter point to sink in until they've grown up enough to see the effects - lovers breaking up, single parent families, messy divorces after rushed weddings...

A very wise post (I mean all of it, but I'm only commenting on this section). However, these days, with 50% of marriages falling apart, causing plenty of grief to everyone involved and showing the problems listed above to people of all ages everywhere, it is possible that the latter point will sink in before the person reaches adolescence.
On the other hand, it's also likely that since many of these people grow up knowing only dysfunction, they will continue dysfunction in their own families, particularily teenage girls. I don't say that because I'm sexist, but rather because girls(according to my mother, she was a teenage girl once, though a pure and chaste one) want love(not necessarily physical love, mind you) from a man. In the olden days, where 2-parent homes were the norm, the father would more often than not be the positive loving male figure. These days, single-parent homes are mostly headed by the mother, causing an imbalance. Since the girls don't oftne get love from a father(-figure), they decide to use sex to get it from a male peer. Of course, as he is also often raised in similar dysfunction, his moral standards won't necessarily be very high, and will likely allow himself to be carried away on a sea of hormones.

[roid]

Heh, so when the dangers of sex just arn't cutting it anymore, we now want to CREATE dangers to sex where none should exist.
Brilliant!
The same circular logic is used in anti-drug campaigns.
Drugs are bad because THE GOVERNMENT will send you to jail if you use them. But hey lets all tell ourselves it's the drugs at fault, that the drugs are sending you to jail - not the government, yeah that'll work.

Obviously sex isn't the problem here, the problem is those who want sex to be a problem. It's trying to create a \"punishment\" where one should no longer exist. It's religious totalitarianism, throw rocks at it.

[Grendel]

Drakona -- It's not about the kids, it's about the parents & \"conservationalists\" opposing the vaccination and thus creating the debate and a possible dangerous situation for girls.

I didn't mean my comment as a general \"all US citizens are wierd\" note -- it's just very visible in everday live (which only means the one shouting loudest is heard best ) and leads to debates mentioned by Topher.

Here's an example: where I live parents have to give written consens before their underage kids can attend the classes touching sexuality (a friend of mine is a teacher, he told me that the best attendence they can get is ~95% w/ older kids, but as low as ~30% w/ younger.) Now, to me that's wierd -- where I grew up parents do not have the option to w/hold their kids from school because they don't like what's being taught..

[Will Robinson]

...No parent would ever say, "You absolutely may not steal the keys out of my purse and drive the car at night. But if you just cannot help yourself... here's how to set the e-brake, you should absolutely wear your seatbelt and don't run any red lights..." The second statement belies the first and undercuts the purpose. You don't prepare someone to safely do something you don't want them to do....

But if you truly believe that at some point they will do it no matter what you say or teach them wouldn't you want them to know how to survive it with the least amount of damage?
I know you may not agree with the premise yourself but I know I'm not confident that I could keep my daughters from engaging in sexual acivity before I'd say they were ready so I would feel like I was negligent as a parent if I didn't make sure they understood all the possible outcomes and protections that are available.

[woodchip]

So what are we saying here? If there were no chance of either disease or pregnancy, sex at any age would be OK...or from a fathers perspective, daughters should wait until they are married before partaking?

[Kilarin]

The same circular logic is used in anti-drug campaigns.

Nope, very different.

You see, it's obvious to people who haven't already fried their brains that drugs are bad for you. BUT, then the government steps in and says "We must protect you from yourselves!", and thats when the ridiculous stuff starts. You want to fry your own brain, you go right ahead, you should have that right. Just so long as you don't harm anyone else. You operate a motor vehicle under the influence and I want you to be strapped down to a table and take an injection of some drugs who's lethality is much quicker and more certain, because then you've stepped over the line from endangering yourself to endangering ME.

Now then, the sex argument is VERY different. It starts out the same though. Some of us see the obvious fact that Sex works best in marriage. Sex outside of marriage, ESPECIALLY teenage sex, causes all kinds of problems.

BUT, and here is the important difference, as long as its two consenting individuals of legal age to consent, the government has not yet (thank goodness) decided they had to jump in and protect you from yourself by having a bunch of sex police. The stupid sodomy laws were struck down, thank God! One of the few moments of sanity we've gotten from the courts.

Drugs: obviously stupid, but the government tries to protect you from yourself and causes even MORE problems

Sex outside of marriage: A really bad idea, but thank goodness the government is staying out of it right now. lets keep it that way.

Now then, to address the HPV issue directly, despite my conservative views on sex, I'm not opposed to the HPV vaccine. Even if you could completely eliminate the risk of disease from extra-marital sex, it would not change my stance (or arguments) about keeping sex within marriage. I think disease should be eliminated, whether bad behavior increases the risk factors or not. Disease is Disease, kill it.

[fliptw]

But if you truly believe that at some point they will do it no matter what you say or teach them wouldn't you want them to know how to survive it with the least amount of damage?
I know you may not agree with the premise yourself but I know I'm not confident that I could keep my daughters from engaging in sexual acivity before I'd say they were ready so I would feel like I was negligent as a parent if I didn't make sure they understood all the possible outcomes and protections that are available.

I recall this quote I heard, I might be paraphrasing it: "If everyone expects blacks to be gang-bangers, then that will blacks will be."

Eductation isn't the problem, its presenting it with a certainity that they will engage in sex is.

Some teens will have sex, but maybe less will if we tell them about it without the above string attached.

[Will Robinson]

I recall this quote I heard, I might be paraphrasing it: "If everyone expects blacks to be gang-bangers, then that will blacks will be."

Eductation isn't the problem, its presenting it with a certainity that they will engage in sex is.

Some teens will have sex, but maybe less will if we tell them about it without the above string attached.

I understand that line of thinking and share it.
I haven't looked into the vaccine yet for my older daughter and am contemplating how I'll bring up the subject of her needing it before she has sex for it to be effective. Or will I even tell her about that aspect of it.

I guess I better or she could hear from a friend that it must be given before the recipient ever has sex to be effective and then she may draw conclusions about my when I expect she's going to start having sex....although I guess she would be correct then wouldn't she?!?

Obviously I don't want her to take it as a sign that we think she's ready to have sex and I also don't intend to inform her about it and withhold having her immunized as a scare tactic to keep her from having sex.

Being a parent is a biotch sometimes!

As far as the state mandating the vaccine, cervical cancer isn't a communicable disease so I don't see where that is proper for them to force it on anyone.

[Lothar]

if you truly believe that at some point they will do it no matter what you say or teach them...

... which I don't believe.

A big part of the problem is that sex education is just that... SEX education. People grow up knowing all the facts about sex. They grow up knowing how to do it, how to protect yourself (somewhat) from disease, and so on.

But nobody manages to teach them about all of the other stuff that goes along with sex. Things like the emotional danger, especially for young girls relying on some 15-year-old boy to take care of their heart (I was a 15-year-old boy once; I wouldn't trust me to give any girl the love and respect she was looking for at that age.) Things like the different ways men and women look at sex, and the different things they get out of it. Things like the fact that some people really do abstain until they're married and very much enjoy their sex lives afterwards. We have plenty of sex education, but completely inadequate relationship education. Neither of which are particularly the government's responsibility. Parents need to teach their kids better -- not just "have safe sex", but about what having a sexual relationship does to you emotionally and about making good decisions about it.

My parents taught me that stuff. When I was 4 years old I could describe the basic mechanics of sex, and by the time I was in "sex ed" in 5th grade my parents had already told me about oral and pretty much everything else (those of you who think I'm a prude who grew up with prudish parents... think again.) I also knew my parents really, really liked it. And that it was something you should only do with someone you're married to, because it was so super-duper important and special, and also because it was powerful. They didn't try to use pregnancy or STD's as scare tactics, and in fact said if I got a girl pregnant they'd make sure we had what we needed to take care of our baby. But, the expectation was put on me to wait until I found the right person and married her... and I did. And we're both glad for it.

Now, merely putting that expectation on a kid isn't going to stop them... if you put that expectation on a kid without giving them the necessary framework to really understand why, they'll disappoint you. If they grow up just expecting that they'll have sex whenever, they're going to -- and if they grow up thinking sex is a lot of fun and not understanding why it's good to wait (aside from STD's and pregnancy) they're going to do it at the first opportunity available. And if you just try to hide sex from them or tell them it's not that good, they're not going to trust anything you say. The only thing that'll make a kid wait is understanding how awesome it is to be in a permanent relationship with as little baggage as possible, and understanding that they can make it happen. Give them the information and the guidance to make that choice, and then let it be their choice (and if they do choose a different path, be right there to help them.)

[Kilarin]

Bravo Lothar!

My parents taught me that stuff. When I was 4 years old I could describe the basic mechanics of sex

Yep. My 7 year old son surprised some friends of mine by jumping into the middle of the adults conversation about sex and abortion. He asked questions and presented his own opinions. One of the adults said that my boy knew a LOT more about sex than she had at that age. My wife said, "In this world, how can you NOT teach them everything they need to know early? If we don't provide them with healthy answers to their questions, the world is ready to provide them with some very UNhealthy ones."

It is VERY important that we educate our own children and answer all of their questions.

[Jeff250]

As far as the state mandating the vaccine, cervical cancer isn't a communicable disease so I don't see where that is proper for them to force it on anyone.

The vaccine immunizes against HPV, which is communicable, not cervical cancer. It does just so happen that HPV can cause cervical cancer, but it wouldn't be accurate to call it a cervical cancer vaccine.

[Grendel]

Some of us see the obvious fact that Sex works best in marriage. Sex outside of marriage, ESPECIALLY teenage sex, causes all kinds of problems.

Haha, good one. I'll have to remember that

Here's another wierd fact -- a friends kid (5yrs) mentioned the word sex in the kindergarden while a teacher was present. Suddenly she and the kid were interrogated by the local psycologist under suspicion of sexual child abuse and neglect since he (the kid) isn't supposed to know about it -- she didn't even know where he picked the word up, probably in a movie. One word from the psyco would have had the government taking away her child.. Now, how do you do responsible sex education under these circumstances ?

[Shadowfury333]

Here's another wierd fact -- a friends kid (5yrs) mentioned the word sex in the kindergarden while a teacher was present. Suddenly she and the kid were interrogated by the local psycologist under suspicion of sexual child abuse and neglect since he (the kid) isn't supposed to know about it -- she didn't even know where he picked the word up, probably in a movie. One word from the psyco would have had the government taking away her child.. Now, how do you do responsible sex education under these circumstances ?

Now that's so ridiculous that it would be funny if it weren't also true. However, the psych fails to realize that the child could've been sexually abused without knowing the name for it. It's an odd sort of permissiveness we have on this continent.

[Dakatsu]

Give out the vaccines, and if a kid has sex, at least they wont have to suffer from Hep B. I am also against the law that sends the oldest kid to jail to rot until they are 21 because they had sex once, and therefore have to go back to school, and the mother, if not in prison, has to take care of the baby (if she has it).

I knew about sex in kindergarten. I laugh about these people who say that if kids don't know about sex, they won't do it? If a kid doesn't know what child abuse is, then I guess they cannot be abused?

So glad I can easily survive just by cuddling with my girlfriend. Way easier than sex, and has a more warm, fuzzy feeling to it that you get in your heart.

[Will Robinson]

As far as the state mandating the vaccine, cervical cancer isn't a communicable disease so I don't see where that is proper for them to force it on anyone.

The vaccine immunizes against HPV, which is communicable, not cervical cancer. It does just so happen that HPV can cause cervical cancer, but it wouldn't be accurate to call it a cervical cancer vaccine.

Ahh, I must have skimmed right over that fact. Well then maybe it is justifiable that the state mandates it's use but I'd like to see the risk factor of that disease compared to any others that the state doesn't mandate immunizations for before I could judge their motives in this case.

[Kilarin]

Never mind. Yep, the bill is for MANDATING the vaccine. Since I had read several articles on the HPV vaccine, I didn't bother to read the one linked at the top.

Well, interesting. I'm very uncomfortable with mandated medication, but in the case of communicable diseases I see the neccessity. HPV is VERY communicable and directly linked to a deadly form of cancer. Hmmmm. Going to have to think about this one a bit.

[TIGERassault]

Just to point out, I'm still a teenager.

I feel that sex education is a good thing, just as long as you don't try to exaggerate or withold certain information, even if it's because you think it'll help.
For example, in Ireland the government launched a large promotion to encourage people to use contraceptives. However, to incourage the use of contraceptives, they didn't tell the people of the downsides. By the end of the campaign, pregnancies and sexually transmitted illnesses had actually increased, because people thought that contraceptives were, as they're called, "safe sex".

Here's another wierd fact -- a friends kid (5yrs) mentioned the word sex in the kindergarden while a teacher was present. Suddenly she and the kid were interrogated by the local psycologist under suspicion of sexual child abuse and neglect since he (the kid) isn't supposed to know about it -- she didn't even know where he picked the word up, probably in a movie. One word from the psyco would have had the government taking away her child.. Now, how do you do responsible sex education under these circumstances ?

Hmm... you're right. If people were more educated about the word 'sex', then that person would also realise that sex is also another word for gender.


By the way, can I ask; what's your opinions on petting?

[Kilarin]

By the way, can I ask; what's your opinions on petting?

From my very conservative perspective? "heavy petting" should wait until you are married. Because heavy petting IS sex. Sex is much more than just intercourse. Anything below the shoulders should wait. I explained why I think it's best to wait in this thread.

[Ferno]

Why should this be a law in the first place? Is getting vaccinated for other illnesses and diseases required by law?

Because last I checked, there was no law requiring me to get vaccinated for chickenpox. And for me to catch chickenpox.. all I'd have to do is be in the same room with a sick kid.

[Top Gun]

Ferno, there are a whole slew of regular childhood vaccines that are required by law in most (if not all) states in order for a child to be able to attend school (public, private, or parochial, it doesn't matter). The only exception that I'm aware of would be some personal objection to the concept of vaccination, which would require the parents to sign legal disclaimers. As the article linked at the top says, the concern over this issue is to whether or not the HPV vaccine would be added to this list in the state of Michigan; I expect that other states are considering enacting similar legislation.

[Birdseye]

the mind boggles why we can't just make make people immune to it on the infant level (parental choice). everyone else who wants a vaccine can show up and get one.

what's the debate again? I can't even think of it until I read some of the bizarre counter logic.

[Ferno]

the mind boggles why we can't just make make people immune to it on the infant level (parental choice).

In a rational world, this would happen without question.

but in the bizzaro world that we call reality, the religious nutjobs figure it's just as bad as birth control.

[Kilarin]

but in the bizzaro world that we call reality, the religious nutjobs figure it's just as bad as birth control.

It's not that simple. Forced medication is a VERY serious issue. Society must examine it's reasons for doing so VERY closely before deciding to medicate someone against there will.

Also, it's not just the religious wackos. There are non religious wackos who are terrified of vaccines as well.

Now, I'm with you, the evidence in favor of vaccines is incredible. For a personal testimony, my wife's great grandfather was a missionary in Africa. He didn't believe in vaccines. His wife did. So, she and the kids took the smallpox vaccine, great-grandpa didn't. Great Grandpa is burried in Africa. Died of smallpox.

So yes, I'm a believer. BUT, back up a few hundred years ago and if the government had insisted upon enforcing the best known medicine of the day, it would have been BLEEDING you, whether you believed bleeding was effective or not. And if you think medicine doesn't make mistakes just as stupid as that now, do some research on sudden infant death syndrom. Which way should you put your baby to bed to keep them safe? They change their minds every 18 months or so.

We should only force people to be medicated when society can show a pressing reason that NOT forcing them is a danger to society. And it had better be VERY well supported.

[Shadowfury333]

We should only force people to be medicated when society can show a pressing reason that NOT forcing them is a danger to society. And it had better be VERY well supported.

Well, I'd say that at least the current DPT(diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis) tri-vaccine administered in infancy and the Measles vaccine administered in Grade 1 up here would become dangers to society if people weren't vaccinated. However, if HPV isn't communicable except by sexul intercourse, then it doesn't seem to present a pressing danger to society.

[Topher]

We should only force people to be medicated when society can show a pressing reason that NOT forcing them is a danger to society. And it had better be VERY well supported.

HPV causes cancer. Getting a vaccine prevents the spread of the disease. If enough people get the vaccine, at some point (I forget what the exact percentage is) everyone is immune through herd immunity and the disease becomes irradicated.

Where's small pox and polio? Have you ever had measles? All things that can kill you but were eradicated because of mandated vaccinations. Seems like a very good reason.

[Ferno]

\"Also, it's not just the religious wackos. There are non religious wackos who are terrified of vaccines as well.\"

Of course. The religious ones are the most vocal about it though.

[TIGERassault]

I explained why I think it's best to wait in this thread.

Hmm... I'd disagree with both your points because:
1) I'm an atheist.
2) I believe that it's jsut happyness together that makes people bond. Sex makes people bond because it makes them very happy for some time.

[Topher]

Sex makes people bond because it makes them very happy for some time.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in your argument, would that imply people bond with drugs because it can make them very happy for some time?

[roid]

actually that can be true. The brain segments activated in long term heroin addicts are the same as those activated when in love. Many heroin addicts have a \"relationship\" with their physical needle not unlike a passionate relationship with a lover. Perhaps not unsimilar to Self-Injurer cutters with their chosen sharp edge, or the \"comfortable friendship\" that smokers cultivate with the cigarete in their mouths. But when you're talking this amount of dopamine release things are bound to be more passionate, the brain makes all kinds of emotional connections - just like love.

Awareness of this emotional \"love\" attachment to the needle is perculating through rehab centers, and success is being found by incorporating counceling techniques previously used for soothing and managing relationship breakups.