When Islam Acts Like a Conquering Army

[flip]

Heh have you? Your quoting from judaism, not Christianity. There's a reason it was called a New Covenant.

[null0010]

Let me say it like this. When Christians murder and burn people at the stake, they are going against what their bible tells them.

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.

[Mjolnir]

According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5

Surah 47:4 says:Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

These people you talk about are not true Muslims then. True muslims believe in the koran and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. As a test, just go and ask any of these muslims you know personally if they believe that Muhammad is the prophet of God. if they say yes, that they believe he speaks the very words of God, then go and read what Muhammad said. Then you will know exactly what they believe. If they say no, then it's moot because they are not really muslims.

That same logic applies to Christianity.

Luke 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet(Jesus), shall be destroyed from among the people.

(10:28-29)
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy."
Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus.

[null0010]

Heh have you? Your quoting from judaism, not Christianity. There's a reason it was called a New Covenant.

It's in the book though. It's divinely inspired. The word of the LORD. Thanks be to God. Just like all that scary stuff in the Qu'ran. Unless you're trying to say that only Christians are allowed to cherry pick their beliefs from their holy book. Though, as Mjolnir has so kindly pointed out, there are commandments to put unbelievers and sinners to death in the New Testament as well.

[flip]

LOL dude your grasping for straws here. Again all your quotes are from a time before Christ. Can we stay on point here? You know, I see this for what it is. I make the assertion that the Koran teaches to kill all believers whereas the NEW TESTAMENT of Christianity teaches to love your enemies and pray for those that hate you.
Instead of just agreeing, your come back, and that's all you ever have, is to basically agree with me about Islam and then say yours too. LOL. No wonder no one can have a productive discussion here.

[Mjolnir]

LOL dude your grasping for straws here. Again all your quotes are from a time before Christ. Can we stay on point here? You know, I see this for what it is. I make the assertion that the Koran teaches to kill all believers whereas the NEW TESTAMENT of Christianity teaches to love your enemies and pray for those that hate you.
Instead of just agreeing, your come back, and that's all you ever have, is to basically agree with me about Islam and then say yours too. LOL. No wonder no one can have a productive discussion here.

My quotes are from the New Testament. I know you're talking to Null but L2Bible.

[null0010]

I make the assertion that the Koran teaches to kill all believers whereas the NEW TESTAMENT of Christianity teaches to love your enemies and pray for those that hate you.

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

[flip]

Ok find me some quotes from the New Testament where a man is actually told to kill someone for not believing.

It makes sense to think that anyone that doesn't believe in Jesus will be destroyed, according the the religion, but nowhere does it tell ME to do it. Which is the only point I was trying to make. I thought it was pretty simple thing to grasp and hard to argue against, hence the \"rubber and glue\" argument that ensued.

[Will Robinson]

Have you ever read the Bible?

ancient text not used to teach children how to live or act in any school in america...

Have you ever read a school book from Saudi Arabia that was widely used as of 2001 and most likely still is?!?
I have and it teaches jihad examples straight from the Koran where the children in those cultures are taught that a jew is sub human and to lie to a jew or other infidel is not a lie because allah wants his children to dominate and kill if they must all non-believers.

So all you have really proven is the point already raised, that Christianity has evolved and Islam has not according to it's ruling class.

No one in the Vatican is issuing fatwa's to have the artist killed who sculpted the Virgin Mary from dog feces and put it in a museum....
You can not say the same for far too many imams around the globe who encourage murder in the name of their gods honor. Those teachers and leaders are constantly taking in and turning those moderate Muslims into radicals.

By the way it is encouraging to see some of you actually accept the reality for a change.

[Mjolnir]

Ok find me some quotes from the New Testament where a man is actually told to kill someone for not believing.

The 3:23 quote I gave has the intent of telling you to kill them. It is just not quite as specific as hacking at their neck.

Your insistence of looking over the faults of one religion while magnifying anothers is the reason for your perceived rubber and glue argument.

[null0010]

Ok find me some quotes from the New Testament where a man is actually told to kill someone for not believing.

Okay...

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites...

---

Have you ever read a school book from Saudi Arabia that was widely used as of 2001 and most likely still is?!?
I have and it teaches jihad examples straight from the Koran where the children in those cultures are taught that a jew is sub human and to lie to a jew or other infidel is not a lie because allah wants his children to dominate and kill if they must all non-believers.

Sounds like a problem with Saudi Arabi to me, not Islam.

[flip]

Both of you still grasping at straws. That verse 3:23 implies the same thing that every friggin religion in the world implies. If you don't believe in my God your gonna die and go to hell. Nowhere does it tell anyone who believes in Christ to do that themselves. All the verses you and null wuote all have to do with consequences of rejecting that religion. NONE of them tell the individual to do anything themselves, just what will happen to the person that doesn't believe. You 2 are wholely dishonest and can't find those verses. Have enough balls about you to at least admit you've argued yourself into a corner. Again.

[CUDA]

The 3:23 quote I gave has the intent of telling you to kill them. It is just not quite as specific as hacking at their neck.

ya know. that doesnt even rank as a "Nice try" on your interpretation of the Scriptures. taking verses out of context and especially with the STREACH of the interpretaion your trying to make just makes you look foolish. NO WHERE is Paul telling any man to kill another. he is talking about the ulitamte death and seperation from God.

22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people. Listen carefully to everything he tells you.’[d Then Moses said, ‘Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from God’s people

this is all in refernce to Lev 23

And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”

[null0010]

Acts 3:1-23 is Peter claiming that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed.

[CUDA]

Acts 3:23 is Peter claiming that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed.

but not by man.

[CUDA]

Exodus 20-13 “You shall not murder.

[flip]

Christians & Jewish martyrs say; \"I will die for what I believe\".
A Muslim martyr says; \"you will die for what I believe\"....

[Nightshade]

Sounds like a problem with Saudi Arabi to me, not Islam.

Saudi Arabia IS islam- most accepted edicts and 'fatwas' come from the kingdom, especially for sunni islam. shi'a comes from the nutbags in Iran.

You will get no arguments if you conclude that humanity has to move away from the backward retardation of religion- belief in ghosts and goblins that exist only in the minds of the twisted priests and prophets that make this crap up.

Right now, however, islam presents the most CLEAR and PRESENT danger to human secular civilization- not dried up old jewish and christian texts.

[null0010]

Acts 3:23 is Peter claiming that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed.

but not by man.

emphasis mine:

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Exodus 20-13 “You shall not murder."

I've already gone over the Old Testament and the massive contradictions to that commandment.

[CUDA]

oh and FYI the actual passage of Deut 18 is talking about the false prohets

“And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

[CUDA]

Acts 3:23 is Peter claiming that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed.

but not by man.

emphasis mine:

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Exodus 20-13 “You shall not murder."

I've already gone over the Old Testament and the massive contradictions to that commandment.

your choice to pick and chose a verse by itself is self serving. your refusal to look at the verse as a whole and the context in which it is presented sepaks volumes about your arguments
I could justify ANY sinful aspect of my life by cherry picking a bible verse. your just finding ways to try to unsecesfully promote your argument.

[CUDA]

dang where's my spell checker

[null0010]

your choice to pick and chose a verse by itself is self serving. your refusal to look at the verse as a whole and the context in which it is presented sepaks volumes about your arguments
I could justify ANY sinful aspect of my life by cherry picking a bible verse. your just finding ways to try to unsecesfully promote your argument.

The same idea applies to the Qu'ran.

[CUDA]

OH and FYI Deut 18 is not Jesus making that statement but Moses

And the LORD said to me

Dueteronomy is Old Testament.

[Mjolnir]

While I understand you'll make any attempt at circular logic to defend your \"Holy Book\", -you're- the one stretching and grasping at straws \"It's Old Testament\" \"It doesn't mean I have to go kill them\" is just excusing the violence in your book, while complaining about the violence in another.

Also the \"do not murder\" line as it was written in originally is for not murdering your own fellow Jews... as the Bible shows over and over as they commit genocide, infanticide, etc, etc.

[flip]

Why did the jews put Jesus to death?

My original comment before this huge derail still stands. The Koran \"in its current form\" advocates killing of unbelievers \"in this very day\". Heh, you guys have to go back several thousand years and THEN STILL CANT come up with anything tangible. Let me restate what I said originally.

Christianity does not advocate anywhere that any of it's followers put anyone to death. It does state that the unbeliever will die, but the implication is clear that God himself will be doing the judging. On the other hand:

but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you

The Koran explicitly says that God himself could do the killing, but he has chosen his followers to do it so they can be tested.

Big difference.

Again though I ask you this. Why did the Jews put Jesus to death?

[CUDA]

While I understand you'll make any attempt at circular logic to defend your "Holy Book", -

I have made no attempt to defend anything. I have simply pointed out that you have no concept of what your talking about. Before you chose to criticize something you should at least have a rudimentary understanding of it.

[Will Robinson]

...

Sounds like a problem with Saudi Arabi to me, not Islam.

Like I mentioned those lessons are being taught all over the globe not just Saudi Arabia however if you are looking for a source they are all being taught by people with something in common and it isn't geographical location or nationality. Why is it important to ignore the obvious?

I'm not suggesting we should ostracize all Muslims but we should certainly not try to help Islam support their deadly little non-secret by doing what you are doing which is making excuses and equivocating irrationally. It is what it is and won't change if we don't seek change.
The world is growing more and more connected and interdependent and with that the radicals within one of the worlds largest religions are becoming an ever increasing threat to stability and life itself.

Does that make more moderate Muslims uncomfortable? I certainly hope so! Without their voice rising up things are just going to get worse.

Imagine for moment the following. Ayatollah Nutbag in Iran detonates a nuke in the name of the martyrs...3..2..1.. MUSHROOMCLOUD drifting over parts of southern Europe or Maryland etc.
Where will the moderate Muslims go to get a sympathetic ear then?!?

[null0010]

Imagine for moment the following. Ayatollah Nutbag in Iran detonates a nuke in the name of the martyrs...3..2..1.. MUSHROOMCLOUD drifting over parts of southern Europe or Maryland etc.
Where will the moderate Muslims go to get a sympathetic ear then?!?

So Muslims are cartoonish supervillains now?

Why did the jews put Jesus to death?

They didn't; the Romans did.

My original comment before this huge derail still stands. The Koran "in its current form" advocates killing of unbelievers "in this very day". Heh, you guys have to go back several thousand years and THEN STILL CANT come up with anything tangible. Let me restate what I said originally.

The Bible, "in its current form" (available at your fine local bookstores) also advocates killing. But you and others have said (paraphrasing) "that stuff doesn't apply to modern Christians." Why can't a Muslim look at the Qu'ran and say in that same way, "that stuff doesn't apply to modern Muslims"?

I have made no attempt to defend anything. I have simply pointed out that you have no concept of what your talking about. Before you chose to criticize something you should at least have a rudimentary understanding of it.

Oh, please. You are making every effort to defend Christianity. It's painfully obvious and to claim otherwise is incredibly dishonest. Luckily for you, St. Augustine wrote that there are seven kinds of dishonesty, but only dishonesty committed for the sake of itself is a sin against God.

[CUDA]

Why did the jews put Jesus to death?

They didn't; the Romans did.

your lack of understanding is astounding. the Jews had Christ killed, the Romans carried out the Act.

The chief priests and Jewish elders having condemned Jesus Christ to death were not themselves able to carry out their sentence without confirmation from the ruler of the region, the Roman governor in Judea. At this time the Roman governor in Judea was Pontius Pilate.

My original comment before this huge derail still stands. The Koran "in its current form" advocates killing of unbelievers "in this very day". Heh, you guys have to go back several thousand years and THEN STILL CANT come up with anything tangible. Let me restate what I said originally.

The Bible, "in its current form" (available at your fine local bookstores) also advocates killing. But you and others have said (paraphrasing) "that stuff doesn't apply to modern Christians." Why can't a Muslim look at the Qu'ran and say in that same way, "that stuff doesn't apply to modern Muslims"?

nice twist there "modern day Christians" the Laws still apply. read here for a better explaination.

http://reformedonline.com/view/reformed ... ount12.htm

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

all the laws still apply

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment

Christ affirms the commandments in Exodus

I have made no attempt to defend anything. I have simply pointed out that you have no concept of what your talking about. Before you chose to criticize something you should at least have a rudimentary understanding of it.

Oh, please. You are making every effort to defend Christianity. It's painfully obvious and to claim otherwise is incredibly dishonest. Luckily for you, St. Augustine wrote that there are seven kinds of dishonesty, but only dishonesty committed for the sake of itself is a sin against God.

Defending something and pointing out your lack of knowledge on a subject are not the same thing. you are making accusations that are untrue and unsupported. you claim the the Bible advocates Killing as the Qu'ran does. you are wrong.

[flip]

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43\"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[c] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?

This is in direct opposition to what Muhammad said and to how the Jews were used to thinking. It was a new dispensation. Man was no longer to avenge sin anymore because by this time sin had been clearly defined and everyone had been found guilty.

If you actually read the text you will also know that Pilate washed his hands, said he found no guilt in Jesus, and that Jesus's blood was to be on the Jews hands and not his.

your lack of understanding is astounding

[Will Robinson]

Imagine for moment the following. Ayatollah Nutbag in Iran detonates a nuke in the name of the martyrs...3..2..1.. MUSHROOMCLOUD drifting over parts of southern Europe or Maryland etc.
Where will the moderate Muslims go to get a sympathetic ear then?!?

So Muslims are cartoonish supervillains now?

troll ducks back under the bridge ^

[null0010]

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

all the laws still apply

Okay, so everything I pointed out in the Old Testament still applies. all Christians must never shave their beards and must never eat shellfish, and must kill adulterers, among other things. But,

you claim the the Bible advocates Killing as the Qu'ran does. you are wrong.

Right.

[Heretic]

I have to disagree with Cuda. Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians.

Romans 10:4 (King James Version)

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ephesians 2:15 (King James Version)

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[CUDA]

I should have been clearer. I was refering to the Commandments as I had in an earlier post. and to Null's comments about \"Modern Christians\" there is no such things as a \"Modern Christian\" just because we are in the 20th century does not change how we are required to act. James 1-22 tells us \" Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.\"

[CUDA]

(Nov. 1) -- Iraqi soldiers stormed a Catholic church where an entire congregation was held hostage by militants, sparking gun battles and explosions in which 58 people, including a priest, were killed. An al-Qaida-linked group claimed responsibility for the siege.

[null0010]

I should have been clearer. I was refering to the Commandments as I had in an earlier post. and to Null's comments about "Modern Christians" there is no such things as a "Modern Christian" just because we are in the 20th century does not change how we are required to act. James 1-22 tells us " Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

But Leviticus is just as important as the 10 commandments. If it weren't, it would not be included in the Bible. It was dictated by God to Moses at Mount Sinai, just like the 10 commandments.

[flip]

Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

If you want to understand the christian faith, it explains itself pretty well.

[Will Robinson]

I should have been clearer. I was refering to the Commandments as I had in an earlier post. and to Null's comments about "Modern Christians" there is no such things as a "Modern Christian" just because we are in the 20th century does not change how we are required to act. James 1-22 tells us " Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

But Leviticus is just as important as the 10 commandments. If it weren't, it would not be included in the Bible. It was dictated by God to Moses at Mount Sinai, just like the 10 commandments.

In the context of this debate it is absolutely silly to argue the degree of violence contained in the text of the Bible compared to that of the Koran.
What is relevant is the degree of violence being taught and promoted by the current leadership in the Christian churches and western countries. That level is a negative number compared to the violence being taught and promoted by Islamic leaders and in the mosques.

[null0010]

Not every mosque is filled with violent extremists. I've been saying that for this entire thread.