article wrote:With a crowd of protesters chanting outside their chambers, Senators approved an amended version of Gov. Scott Walker's bill, which would strip most collective bargaining rights from public employees. The new bill removes all fiscal elements of the proposal but still curbs collective bargaining and increases employee payments in pension and health benefits.
After the session, Senate Republicans scattered, answering no questions. But Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said in a statement, "Enough is enough."
No one could explain Wednesday how the Senate managed to pass components of the original bill that seemed to have fiscal elements, including changes in pensions and benefits.
Fitzgerald's spokesman, Andrew Welhouse, said Republicans were following the advice of their legal counsel, who told them which parts of the bill could be passed.
I think some serious legal battles are in the future of Wisconsin.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:13 pm
by Krom
Just goes to show, the governor/republicans really didn't give a damn about actually passing the budget. The stuff about stripping collective bargaining was only there because they wanted an "important" bill that would be difficult to avoid voting on to attach it to. All the more reason Americans need to stop "piggyback" legislation at all levels of government.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:57 pm
by Spidey
Well…what were they supposed to do with the Democrats in hiding, and all? I am going to assume the state’s constitution allows taking the vote in matters other than the budget without the full congress in session?
Sad state of affairs…really.
So I guess they figured out in advance the Democrats would split the scene…produced a bill they knew would not pass…busted the union, and didn’t have to do anything on the budget.
Wow, those Republicans are smarter that I give them credit for.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:46 am
by woodchip
So while the Dems hide, big unions died.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:00 am
by flip
Preventative Strategies – Stop it before it starts
It is widely recognized that the best defensive strategy against privatization is the outright prohibition of contracting out. While generally achieved through bargaining or through legislative action, prohibition may occasionally be achieved through litigation.
A second-best defensive strategy sets out cost and service-quality standards which severely restrict the ability of private contractors to low-ball initial bids, engage in sweetheart deals or provide inadequate services.
Both strategies are best utilized by taking advantage of "friendly" political environments and taking preemptive strikes against contracting out by bargaining prohibitive language, requiring advance warning or guaranteeing access to information and /or enacting protective legislation. While bargaining and legislative successes are very difficult to achieve, due to the tremendous bargaining resolve and/or enormous political influence required, these preemptive protections have huge future payoffs.
In addition, vigilance by union members is an important component in fighting privatization. Union members must be constantly aware of bids for contractual services and be prepared to prevent privatization in any form in any agency. Moreover, monitoring existing private providers and documenting poor services is important for fighting future public relations and legislative battles.
There goes another chip in the armor. "Let's give a pass to the Unions over the healthcare bill. That will turn the normal individual against the very last thing preventing the complete privatization of America." /fiction?
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:41 am
by Herculosis
Krom wrote:Just goes to show, the governor/republicans really didn't give a damn about actually passing the budget. The stuff about stripping collective bargaining was only there because they wanted an "important" bill that would be difficult to avoid voting on to attach it to. All the more reason Americans need to stop "piggyback" legislation at all levels of government.
I'm sorry, but as a fellow Wisconsin resident, that's total crap. The budget is critical, and the reps/gov seem to be the only ones that DO care about it. All I've heard from the other side is that this isn't a spending problem but a revenue problem. In other words, raise taxes (ie: screw everyone ELSE, screw the economy and the business climate).
Yes, accepting the unions' offer of going along with JUST paying more for their benefits WITHOUT the collective bargaining part MIGHT have answered (at least a big piece of) the short-term deficit issue. The problem is that that's a very limited view of just a piece of the bill.
The bill also cuts local funding and prevents local governments from raising property tax levies for two years. And, Local county and municipal budgets are ALSO critical. Those entities have the SAME kinds of issues with the union stranglehold. Without the collective bargaining piece, those local entities (and EVERYONE that lives in them) are totally screwed. Their only other option would be to cut employees and services.
The protesters are acting like this is an attack on the middle class, and is taking away their "civil rights". Well, most government employees in other states don't have these rights. Federal employees don't have them. And, THE VAST MAJORITY of the residents of Wisconsin don't have them. I don't blame them for being upset about taking a financial hit, but seeing that their comp packages are WAY higher than similar private-sector employees get, boo-hoo. Bunch 'a babies.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:06 pm
by CUDA
FDR on Public Unions wrote:
Franklin Delano Roosevelt is often considered to be the patron saint of the American Labor movement. Nevertheless, he expressed caution about public sector unions. In a little-known letter he wrote to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:
"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:11 am
by flip
"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."
I'd say this is generally true until some sort of "paralysis" is needed. Again, I also try to look at this under our present circumstances. Our current policies, politics and politicians all point more heavily towards living under an Oligarchy more than an actual Republic, I try to look at things in that light.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:15 pm
by fliptw
technically, an oligarchy is a republic. A Republic is where supreme power is invested in a group, not a single person.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:49 pm
by Nightshade
Nice thuggish tactics being employed here:
March 10, 2011
Mr. Tom Ellis, President
Marshall & Ilsley Corporation
770 N. Water Street
Milwaukee, WI 53202
SENT VIA FASCIMILE AND REGULAR MAIL
Dear Mr. Ellis:
As you undoubtedly know, Governor Walker recently proposed a “budget
adjustment bill” to eviscerate public employees’ right to collectively bargain in
Wisconsin. ..
As you also know, Scott Walker did not campaign on this issue when he ran for
office. If he had, we are confident that you would not be listed among his largest
contributors. As such, we are contacting you now to request your support.
The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor
Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in
Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this
request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not
respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with
Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters,
and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.
In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining,
please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the
goods and services provided by your company. However, if you join us, we will
do everything in our power to publicly celebrate your partnership in the fight to
preserve the right of public employees to be heard at the bargaining table.
Wisconsin’s public employee unions serve to protect and promote equality and
fairness in the workplace. We hope you will stand with us and publicly share that
ideal.
In the event you would like to discuss this matter further, please contact the
executive Director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Jim Palmer,
at 608.273.3840.
Thank you in advance for your consideration. We look forward to hearing from
you soon.
James L. Palmer, Executive Director
Wisconsin Professional Police Association
Mahlon Mitchell,President
Professional Professional Fire Fighters
Jim Conway, President
International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311
John Matthews, Execuctive Director
Madison Teachers, Inc.
Keith Patt, Executive Director
Green Bay Education Association
Bob Richardson, President
Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association
Dan Frei, Prersident
Madison Professional Police Officers Association
That really doesn't seem "thuggish" to me. When I hear "thuggish" I think of physical violence. This letter seems quite devoid of threats of violence.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:16 am
by woodchip
null0010 wrote:That really doesn't seem "thuggish" to me. When I hear "thuggish" I think of physical violence. This letter seems quite devoid of threats of violence.
The following from the letter is just another variant of "Protection" insurance offered by the local mob. If you don't think it is thuggish then your view of the word is vastly different than mine:
"In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining,
please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the
goods and services provided by your company."
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:41 am
by CUDA
ThunderBunny wrote:Nice thuggish tactics being employed here:
Come on!!!!!! UNIONS aren't thugs!!!! Unions are Nice people, people that if you don't give them their way they threaten your business with Boycotts until they get what they want, or drive you out of Business.
and if they do work for you, they threaten your business with Boycotts until they get what they want, or drive you out of Business
Unions = Legalized Mafia. if not. explain the likes of Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:29 pm
by null0010
Oh, no! Not a boycott! Those boycotted could um, fall over out of despair, and break their legs. Now I see the violence angle.
I recant my statement! They're thugs, all of them.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:10 pm
by flip
Unions = Legalized Mafia. if not. explain the likes of Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters
True enough but tell me where they do anything different than the Government does? They are all corrupt, but the unions do present an obstacle to the complete privatization of America by the worlds corporations. Aside from the unions I can think of no bigger political force that represents the blue collar workers of America. The Dems and Repubs sure as hell don't. They are strictly corporate pawns at this point. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if he doesn't look that much different.
Wisconsin bill gets deleted items added back in AFTER it passed the Senate.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:12 pm
by Tunnelcat
flip wrote:
Unions = Legalized Mafia. if not. explain the likes of Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters
True enough but tell me where they do anything different than the Government does? They are all corrupt, but the unions do present an obstacle to the complete privatization of America by the worlds corporations. Aside from the unions I can think of no bigger political force that represents the blue collar workers of America. The Dems and Repubs sure as hell don't. They are strictly corporate pawns at this point. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if he doesn't look that much different.
Well said flip. I was a member of the AFL-CIO Machinists Union years ago. We weren't "thugs", we were a group of hard working mechanics that just wanted to have a living wage. While we worked for a small business, the owner could've cared less that most of these guys had families with children to support and that they were living from paycheck to paycheck. He skimmed a huge chunk of profits off the shop rate that was charged the customer. He would then would go out and play with it, namely illegally boosting the university football team, plying them with cars and other expensive toys. He certainly didn't like the union and fought us tooth and nail. We never did reach a consensus with the guy, people eventually quit and he got caught with his little illegal football booster activities and lost his business.
CUDA wrote:have you ever wondered why Toyota, and Honda are the top Auto manufacturers in the world. it's because GM, Ford, and Chrylser Union built and Union controlled crap. priced themselves into bankruptcy
Actually, Toyota has also fallen into the Walmart death spiral. Expand and expand, profit and more profit, cost cut and cost cut, then lose track of quality because you've gotten to big for your britches and can't control or keep a handle on things. I wouldn't buy a Toyota right now if you PAID me. Ford managed to bring their quality up and GM may be following. The union problem isn't due to wages now, it's about health care benefits and pensions. THAT is what's going to bankrupt this country. The baby boomers are entering retirement age. You can't blame them, they want to be able to retire after years of work and remain somewhat healthy doing so. Who doesn't?
But you know where the money is really going? To these guys:
They are the vampires that are taking from everyone else. The robber barons of the last century may have oppressed their workers, but at least they built enormous industrial empires that gave something to this country. Now these new robber barons are no longer contributing as many hard benefits towards our country, but instead are destroying our industry or outright swindling and stealing from it. This is NOT productive to our economic process. We have the beginnings of a major social crisis and it isn't going to be pretty. Scott Walker may have won the battle, but he may have done the Democrats a favor, by galvanizing their base into fighting back against the greed that has overtaken our country. You think the unions are stealing, these guys make it look like chump change!
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:19 pm
by null0010
CUDA wrote:
FDR on Public Unions wrote:
Franklin Delano Roosevelt is often considered to be the patron saint of the American Labor movement. Nevertheless, he expressed caution about public sector unions. In a little-known letter he wrote to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:
"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."
article wrote:Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne is asking judge to void Walker's anti-union bill that was "passed" last week in violation of the State's open meeting law. Walker signed the bill last Friday, but there is one more step before the law can take effect, and this complaint seeks to prevent this step of publishing the legislation, as well as voiding the measure and financial penalties of $300 forfeiture plus court costs and attorney's fees as well as a declaration that they violated two state constitutional provisions. The defendants are: "Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, R-Horicon; Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau; Senate president Michael Ellis, R-Neenah; Assembly Majority Leader Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford; and La Follette," a Democrat.
I hope the lawsuit is successful.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:00 pm
by SilverFJ
Cafeteria constitutionalists. Funny. Didn't see you guys piping up about it during the fight against Obamacare.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:03 pm
by null0010
SilverFJ wrote:Cafeteria constitutionalists. Funny. Didn't see you guys piping up about it during the fight against Obamacare.
I was not a member of this forum at that time.
Re: Fun times in Madison WI this week.
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:08 pm
by SilverFJ
Ah. And I was off work travelling when you joined.
Hard to keep track after about 12 years of being here, so many people coming and going.