Will, maybe Iran wasn't involved. It's a stretch to believe they were actually surprised by Hamas' mass attack since they've supported them in the past. Even the Biden Administration is "assuming" Iran is involved, also basing that viewpoint on Iran's support for Hamas in the past. If you have more hard "proof" that Iran was involved, share it with us instead of flailing at my obvious lack of evidence.
And Trump will never face a firing squad for seditious treason because his "party" blindly loves him conditionally and all these indictments are just leftie witch hunts against a poor widdle baby ex-president. That fervent love is why we don't have better evidence against him too. They're protecting him. It's called obstruction of justice.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:03 pm
by Will Robinson
Krom wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:58 pm
Did you ever pause to think: "If everyone here believes Iran is guilty why do I keep insisting they don't?"
I didn’t think everyone thought/thinks they were innocent. The whole point was I was pissed off the administration could get away with implying Iran maybe innocent therefore they won’t say it.
It is painfully obvious that was the distinction, the point, the focus, etc. etc. etc.
If all of you genuinely believe otherwise then you are really stupid. And no I don’t believe you are that.
So what the hell? The Biden administration is that holy that you dare not blaspheme?! Lol, I thought some of you would have more self respect than that.
Krom wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:58 pm
Did you ever pause to think: "If everyone here believes Iran is guilty why do I keep insisting they don't?"
I didn’t think everyone thought/thinks they were innocent.The whole world knows Iran owns the attack by virtue of hiring, supplying training and protecting the attackers who have always have answered to Iran!
The whole point was I was pissed off the administration could get away with implying Iran maybe innocent therefore they won’t say it.
It is painfully obvious that was the distinction, the point, the focus, etc. etc. etc.
If all of you genuinely believe otherwise then you are really stupid. And no I don’t believe you are that.
So what the hell? The Biden administration is that holy that you dare not blaspheme?! Lol, I thought some of you would have more self respect than that.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:18 am
by Darth Wang
Iran's government is bad and does bad things, true. But we can't exactly arrest and prosecute a foreign government.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:38 am
by vision
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:03 pmThe Biden administration is that holy that you dare not blaspheme?! Lol, I thought some of you would have more self respect than that.
I thought it was clear that no one here gives a crap about Biden. Those of us who voted for him did so because the alternative is the destruction of democracy in the US (yes I absolutely believe this). That said, regarding Iran I think you should remember some things:
First, Iran's government is more factious than you probably expect. Just like how the US has different agencies like the FBI and CIA and NSA and DHS and ICE, Iran also has these equivalents and, just like the US, these departments don't always talk to each other (I don't have a direct source for this information, just a friend in academia who knows second hand). Second, remember that support for Hamas comes in different flavors such as financial, material, and shared intelligence. Not all of this support comes from the Iranian government proper, but also private industry (like defense contractors, again mirroring other countries including the US). And it's likely they don't always coordinate with each other because it's probably not necessary in most cases. And finally this last bit of truth, Hamas has agency. They don't need Iran. They can act on their own or with a coalition of other interests. Iran didn't create Hamas and their relationship is one of convenience. Hamas is not beholden to Iran.
So when US intelligence says Iran was surprised by this latest attack on Israel I'm inclined to believe them. There is no reason for the current administration to soften up any language around Iran. That country is directly aligned against our interests and the interests of our allies especially our effort to support Ukraine.
The complexity of moving parts between Israel, Hamas, Iran, The US, Egypt, and Israel's neighbors makes the statement "Iran is to blame" come across as wildly superficial. Surely you can see that. In contrast, the actions of Donald f'ing Trump, who refused to agree to a peaceful transfer of power when asked more than once, and who then incited a mob to attack the Capitol Building, and who's misdeeds are reported by the media from his own f'ing mouth, it's absolutely clear to see how guilty he is.
Lastly, there is no merit to your statement that "Iran is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world". It's quite ignorant of Iran's history. Most Islamic terrorism can be traced to The Islamic State, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda -- all of whom Iran has fought against (except BK in Africa) [1]. Iran supports terrorism for sure, but not anywhere near the capacity as these large Sunni Jihadist networks, none of which are in or funded by Iran. Get your facts straight.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:25 am
by Krom
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:10 pm
I didn’t think everyone thought/thinks they were innocent.The whole world knows Iran owns the attack by virtue of hiring, supplying training and protecting the attackers who have always have answered to Iran!
The whole point was I was pissed off the administration could get away with implying Iran maybe innocent therefore they won’t say it.
It is painfully obvious that was the distinction, the point, the focus, etc. etc. etc.
If all of you genuinely believe otherwise then you are really stupid. And no I don’t believe you are that.
So what the hell? The Biden administration is that holy that you dare not blaspheme?! Lol, I thought some of you would have more self respect than that.
Basically you are mad that Biden didn't immediately launch airstrikes/nukes/harsh language against anything taller than an anthill in Iran. We get it; you are fascist, stupid and unreasonable. Has it occurred to you that perhaps the administration is just thinking before they speak in a volatile situation? Maybe you should just shut the ★■◆● up and let the grown-ups work on foreign policy.
Also this attack has already had consequences for Iran: that $6 billion in Iranian oil money that was unfrozen, the US and Qatar have quietly agreed to withhold it. I would be surprised if you knew that though because the story circulating through the right wing media silo is that Iran had it already, used it to directly fund/supply/command Hamas for this attack, and that it was US taxpayer dollars.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:01 am
by Spidey
I see the bar for being a fascist has been lowered to pointing out a perceived double standard.
Pretty soon it will be voicing any opinion...no wait.
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:03 pmThe Biden administration is that holy that you dare not blaspheme?! Lol, I thought some of you would have more self respect than that.
regarding Iran I think you should remember some things:
First, Iran's government is more factious than you probably expect. Just like how the US has different agencies like the FBI and CIA and NSA and DHS and ICE, Iran also has these equivalents and, just like the US, these departments don't always talk to each other (I don't have a direct source for this information, just a friend in academia who knows second hand). Second, remember that support for Hamas comes in different flavors such as financial, material, and shared intelligence. Not all of this support comes from the Iranian government proper, but also private industry (like defense contractors, again mirroring other countries including the US). And it's likely they don't always coordinate with each other because it's probably not necessary in most cases. And finally this last bit of truth, Hamas has agency. They don't need Iran. They can act on their own or with a coalition of other interests. Iran didn't create Hamas and their relationship is one of convenience. Hamas is not beholden to Iran.
Iran didn’t exactly create Hamas, it adopted it in its infancy and educated them, fed them and shaped them in an acceptable image of the ayatollahs approved terror group. It funds them in range of hundreds of millions annually, Iran is by far Hamas’ larges sponsor. (I’ll provide a link lower in my response where you can find details)
A “relationship of convenience” so? Is that somehow a protection from liability for acts performed by you convenient ally?
Is Trumps relationship with his supporters any different?
Trumpers have agency, Hamas has agency, both can be manipulated to use their agency to do bad things. Both have.
vision wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:38 amSo when US intelligence says Iran was surprised by this latest attack on Israel I'm inclined to believe them.
The Biden administration has procured a report from ‘US Intelligence’ stating Hunter Baiden’s laptop was nothing more than a Russian disinformation ploy. Now Baiden’s Justice department is going to try and convict Hunter based on info from the laptops contents and have acknowledged the Russians had nothing to do with it. The response from the ‘intelligence signers of the document’ ? *crickets*
So please forgive me for have some doubt about that ‘report’ about intelligence says Iran surprised. I’m confident that statement will be destroyed soon and the white house spokesperson will clumsily rephrase it and claim that new reading is what was intended… like they always do.
vision wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:38 amThe complexity of moving parts between Israel, Hamas, Iran, The US, Egypt, and Israel's neighbors makes the statement "Iran is to blame" come across as wildly superficial. Surely you can see that. In contrast, the actions of Donald f'ing Trump, who refused to agree to a peaceful transfer of power when asked more than once, and who then incited a mob to attack the Capitol Building, and who's misdeeds are reported by the media from his own f'ing mouth, it's absolutely clear to see how guilty he is.
First, I mentioned at best the reason for refusing to declare water is wet in regards to Iran’s culpability was tactical for the reason you gave.
Second, and I have to reiterate for the zealot lefties here- I hope Trump is somehow proven guilty within the existing law and prosecuted - Considering all you have is words. He didn’t train them by the thousands, fund them, arm them, preach that god would reward them for overthrowing the government, etc. only Trumps words and politicians for reasons I disagree with are allowed to lie and exploit hyperbole beyond the accepted norms for mere civilians. So, existing laws will be weak to provide the conviction. Therefore the claim is “superficial” there as well. But it doesn’t stop you and others from accepting it in Trumps case.
I don’t see how in the world you can look at the decades long body of influence Iran has compiled combined with significant decades long material support including putting the guns and bombs in the hands of the attackers, training them in the use and delivering millions of dollars year in and almost every year out compared to the influence Jan 6th Trump created and say Trump is much more responsible for the attempted coup than Iran is for Hamas’ attack it just absolutely pales in comparison. So I have to conclude you aren’t stupid enough to arrive at that conclusion but rather you have set that conclusion as your goal and tried to prop it up.
vision wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:38 amLastly, there is no merit to your statement that "Iran is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world". It's quite ignorant of Iran's history. Most Islamic terrorism can be traced to The Islamic State, Boko Haram, the Taliban, and al-Qaeda -- all of whom Iran has fought against (except BK in Africa) [1]. Iran supports terrorism for sure, but not anywhere near the capacity as these large Sunni Jihadist networks, none of which are in or funded by Iran. Get your facts straight.
You sourced a document that looks like some laws and proposed laws that would have the reader believe Iran has decided to oppose terrorism in some instances. Not sure you meant that to be the link you inserted because it doesn’t show Iran isn’t the largest exporter of terrorism that I can see.
Take a look at the timeline in this (scroll down just a bit so the timeline occupies the bottom half of your screen and the slide show the top half)
Trigger warning: some conservatives are members of this group so if you are prone to react like an ostrich to them begin your defensive posturing now. However, be assured that you are ignoring facts that can be proven and even the Biden administration with the helpers they have in mainstream media can’t refute its content. In fact Joe Bidens agreement with the contents is a part of a 40 some year record as a Senator ( and that is back when he was lucid)
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:15 am
by woodchip
Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of signing a peace deal which didn't include Iran. Now the Saudi's appear to want to scrap the deal and work with the Iranians. Coincidence? I don't believe in coincidence's where politics are concerned
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:09 am
by Krom
Spidey wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:01 am
I see the bar for being a fascist has been lowered to pointing out a perceived double standard.
Pretty soon it will be voicing any opinion...no wait.
If he wasn't fascist he wouldn't have perceived a double standard in the first place. This whole thread is a fine example of a fascist warped thought process. He is in such a hurry to attack Iran (or perhaps more importantly Biden) that he isn't even concerned with laying the groundwork or innocent casualties caught in the crossfire or what happens afterwards. Anyone else remember how big of a disaster the US response to 9/11 was and continues to be? He just wants to do that all over again having learned nothing! Let's just spray bullets/bombs/missiles into a country of 87 million people with absolutely zero self awareness because it would make him feel good.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:23 am
by Tunnelcat
woodchip wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:15 am
Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of signing a peace deal which didn't include Iran. Now the Saudi's appear to want to scrap the deal and work with the Iranians. Coincidence? I don't believe in coincidence's where politics are concerned
Frankly, I'm not surprised. As heinous as the attack was on Israel citizens, Netanyahu's extreme and violent response to that attack is displacing millions of people and killing thousands of innocent people. I think Netanyahu's the one to blame for derailing those peace talks.
Yo, if you read the report this link is citing you'll see it's the report for terror events in 2015. If you look at the reports for other years they name different countries like Cuba and Syria as top state sponsors. Also, if you are not going to believe intelligence reports about Hunter Biden I don't see how this link you provided offers any support to your claim because it's also citing US intelligence. You can't pick and choose man.
Yo, if you read the report this link is citing you'll see it's the report for terror events in 2015. If you look at the reports for other years they name different countries like Cuba and Syria as top state sponsors. Also, if you are not going to believe intelligence reports about Hunter Biden I don't see how this link you provided offers any support to your claim because it's also citing US intelligence. You can't pick and choose man.
The ‘intelligence report about Hunters laptop wasn’t really an official report! It was a letter curated by friends of Joe where he got as many big names to sign it in 24 hour rush to let Biden call it a report to try to shut down the reporting of what his idiot crack head son did. Friendly’journalists’ called it an intelligence report or document to give it more weight also.
So yea, I didn’t give it the credibility it is proven it doesn’t deserve! And at least one of those intelligence officers has said he trusted the senior party asking him so sign on to it and after hearing blow back looked into it and sorry he signed it.
So I counter with: yes you can pick and choose because team Biden loves to lie about ‘facts’. If you don’t pick and choose you end up believing bull★■◆●. Like that pile you just tried to shovel about the ‘intelligence report’ on Hunters laptop
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:22 am
by vision
Ah yes, alternative facts and whatnot. So which intelligence reports are your going to believe? The ones you link to after a lazy Internet search because the confirm your beliefs? Dismiss all intelligence if a Democrat is in office like the recent report on Iran and Hamas? Quite an interesting conundrum.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:51 am
by Krom
Remember folks, nothing is too much of a stretch and all sources are absolute rock solid as long as it says anything bad about democrats.
You know, the Trump years really broke everything. Because it used to be when you came across news of some politician doing or saying something stupid it was easy to show it was fake or misconstrued or an outright lie, but now the republicans actually say and do those things! And they do it on purpose, on the record, trying to get as much attention as they can while doing it. So the republicans being absolutely bat-★■◆● insane has lowered the bar so much that conservatives now easily believe pretty much anything in the right wing media silo because they think the democrats/liberals/all politicians are on their same level.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:25 am
by Will Robinson
vision wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:22 am
Ah yes, alternative facts and whatnot. So which intelligence reports are your going to believe? The ones you link to after a lazy Internet search because the confirm your beliefs? Dismiss all intelligence if a Democrat is in office like the recent report on Iran and Hamas? Quite an interesting conundrum.
Lol! Vision and Krom the projection is strong with you guys!
A lazy internet search might leave one believing the Biden teams totally made up Russian conspiracy but any effort using genuine intellectual curiosity searching for the truth about Hunters laptop and who and how the Russian disinformation excuse was fabricated and passed off on the too willing media is rewarded with a solid result that has lots of actual verifiable evidence to find.
I will enjoy watching you two twist in the wind trying to dismiss realty by shouting ‘fascist’ all you like. Because anyone reading this who bothers to then look for them selves will end up knowing you guys are projecting your own faults in a desperate, or perhaps mindless knee jerk defense.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:11 pm
by vision
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:25 am...any effort using genuine intellectual curiosity searching for the truth...
The lazy Internet search was directed at you for doing exactly that. You wanted to prove a point so you picked a link that seemed credible (unitedagainstnucleariran.com), but what you should have done was dig down to the source, read it, understand it, and link to that. Instead I had to do that work to find out it didn't support your argument. Would you like to continue this weird thread where you are basically arguing with people that agree with you about Hamas and Iran?
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:03 pm
by Tunnelcat
The hatred and conflict over in that region is complex and old. Will must want some sort black and white "proof" that just isn't blatantly apparent. All these varied terror groups that hate Israel and the Jews are just proxies for nearly all the surrounding countries, like Syria, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Yemen, who also hate Israel. These groups aren't even all the same sect of Islam and fight against each other as well. Revenge and a desire for the genocide of their opponents drive the regional politics and wars and has for centuries. I see no peace or resolution this time, because Netanyahu has started a punitive war. He's fanning the flames of hate by killing thousands and forcibly displacing millions from their only homes. Worse, no country wants them. The result? More hatred towards Israel and the U.S. Even if his army could kill every member of Hamas, the hate will remain like a festering sore and create new armies of terrorists. Now the fuse has just been lit that will involve the world powers. Iran has just publicly stated that they will support any fight against Israel. Just lovely.
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:25 am...any effort using genuine intellectual curiosity searching for the truth...
The lazy Internet search was directed at you for doing exactly that. You wanted to prove a point so you picked a link that seemed credible (unitedagainstnucleariran.com), but what you should have done was dig down to the source, read it, understand it, and link to that. Instead I had to do that work to find out it didn't support your argument. Would you like to continue this weird thread where you are basically arguing with people that agree with you about Hamas and Iran?
vision wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:24 pm Yo, if you read the report this link is citing you'll see it's the report for terror events in 2015. If you look at the reports for other years they name different countries like Cuba and Syria as top state sponsors.
Ok, I’ll bite.
It’s the timeline I searched for not the label ‘greatest exporter of terrorism’. Or #1 State Sponsor, although I chuckled when I saw that.
However whatever criteria they used to award top state sponsor may not be relevant to the point. How did they weight it…what activity?etc
It’s the timeline that drives my point home. If you want to get in a pissing match over grammar or semantics on my choice of words have at it. It doesn’t refute the actual point I was raising but ok.
Just as an example you cite Syria was champion one year…hmm Hezbollah is Syrian based. But owned outright by Iran.
So has your interpretation of ‘#1 state sponsor’ at one time belonging to Syria have a percentage deducted for Hezbollah’s contribution? You’ll need to move that to Irans column if you really want to be pedantic.
And ditto for almost any others you like. Most of them are or have been recipients of Iranian funding and training etc. hell Al Queda basically relocated there to survive!
The only outlier I can think of is Islamic State/ IS/Isis/et al who came out swinging in 2014/15 took a lot of lives. And have settled into thuggery extortion kidnapping enriching themselves etc but exporting beyond their shrunken turf? Some, but Iran has been doing it for decades before they showed up and the biggest difference is what make Iran so dangerous. They have two things no other has. A nuclear weapons program on the eve of harvest and the status of a recognized state in the geopolitical club. Now add they are a top oil producing state, a member of OPEC. They have the ‘economy of scale’ behind their influence and capacity to export terror that no other has. And the history for it. It is their strength and they will be so much more dangerous very soon.
So, ding me for being loose with title #1 exporter unbeaten. My fault for not specifying the criteria for how I judge it. On the other hand, show me how many millions of dollars any other terrorist organization has paid to fund insurgencies and I’m betting Iran has them beat.
Show me who you think has carried out and/or paid for assassinations in more countries than Iran.
So, timeline. Show me the timeline of any other exporter of terrorism that rivals Irans for involvement in terroristic activity.
Show me which ones have the most attacks in other countries beyond what ever border they live behind.
It is the timeline that shows the scope of their guilt that I have been pointing at as a reference to Trumpster. It’s just laughable to think one who can find guilt in his Jan 6th speech can’t find a similar cause and effect in Irans history for the attack carried out by Hamas.
So let me know if I have it clear now that you guys have finally agreed to cite Hamas for culpability.
Is Irans decades of rhetoric calling for the absolute destruction of Jews and state of Israel and the weapons training, bomb supplying, missile deliveries and payment for bounty on dead Jews, accolades for killing Jews coming from a recognized member of the U.N., etc. etc. is all of that not as effective in causing an attack as the one day speech by the arrogant orange man baby?
You guys can just answer yes or no if you like. Or of course you can do all that other ★■◆● too, it’s not like I own you or anything although I’m starting to think I live rent free in some of your heads lol
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:58 pm
by vision
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:00 pmOn the other hand, show me how many millions of dollars any other terrorist organization has paid to fund insurgencies and I’m betting Iran has them beat...Show me the timeline of any other exporter of terrorism that rivals Irans for involvement in terroristic activity....Show me which ones have the most attacks in other countries beyond what ever border they live behind.
You know how discourse works? You make a statement then provide evidence (which you haven't). It's not my responsibility to show you anything. Also, a lot of what is considered "terrorism" is just what the US government calls it, not what it actually is. Taliban? Not terrorists, but the actual recognized government of Afghanistan going back before it was cool to call everyone a terrorist. I don't actually consider Hamas terrorists either, they are the main governing body of Gaza. ISIS and Al-Qaeda? Absolutely terrorists but also freedom fighters if you agree with them. From my perspective, it really doesn't matter what Iran does in the case of Israel. Iran isn't on "my team" but neither is Israel. Israel is an imperialist force governing an apartheid state that is slowly erasing a group of people. I 100% support the Palestinian right to self-determination and independence. [more]
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:00 pmOn the other hand, show me how many millions of dollars any other terrorist organization has paid to fund insurgencies and I’m betting Iran has them beat...Show me the timeline of any other exporter of terrorism that rivals Irans for involvement in terroristic activity....Show me which ones have the most attacks in other countries beyond what ever border they live behind.
vision wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:58 pm You know how discourse works? You make a statement then provide evidence (which you haven't). It's not my responsibility
Bull crap, the timeline is the evidence. Unless you dispute all those attacks took place or that Iran was really the responsible party.
It’s pretty clear I’m citing the body of influence, the preponderance of creating terroristic attacks. The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Iran is the granddaddy of terrorism and the evidence is well documented in history. The timeline I provided is a handy reference to it.
vision wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:58 pm Also, a lot of what is considered "terrorism" is just what the US government calls it, not what it actually is. Taliban? Not terrorists, but the actual recognized government of Afghanistan going back before it was cool to call everyone a terrorist. I don't actually consider Hamas terrorists either, they are the main governing body of Gaza. ISIS and Al-Qaeda? Absolutely terrorists but also freedom fighters if you agree with them. From my perspective, it really doesn't matter what Iran does in the case of Israel. Iran isn't on "my team" but neither is Israel. Israel is an imperialist force governing an apartheid state that is slowly erasing a group of people. I 100% support the Palestinian right to self-determination and independence. [more]
Ok, so let’s put an end to the semantics dance. I retract ever using “terrorism” it’s been two pages of deflection because of it. The timeline doesn’t depend on the word terrorism.
If Trumps words caused an attack on Jan 6th. (And I’m one who thinks they were the catalyst for it, this is not some rascally republican trick to get you to say ‘gee!I guess trump is innocent’),is there a difference in how effective the words and deeds of Iran toward Hamas are? Or does the same logic behind Trumps indictment work agains Iran with regards to the attack on Israelis? And if not why?
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:17 am
by Krom
This entire thread is you being mad because Biden hasn't launched World War III yet, it is petty and stupid. You should be grateful Biden is trying not to get you and everyone you know killed in a nuclear fireball, or is nuclear war what you really want? Although if you are expecting to die a martyr for freedumb or whatver it is you think you stand for you can forget that idea; you will only die a fool in a pointless pissing match where everybody loses.
You apparently aren't anywhere near as mad that Hamas slaughtered a bunch of Israeli civilians, or that Israel is retaliating by bombing and killing even more Palestinian civilians. No, the thing that you are most pissed off about here is Biden not catering to your fascist poisoned brains desire for immediate revenge.
Do you want to know another place in the world where Iran's foreign/terror policies are unpopular: Iran! There are almost 88 million people living there and many of them are protesting against their government even in the face of death! The middle east conflicts aren't so simple that just lashing out at Iran will solve anything, in fact doing so is pretty much guaranteed to make things worse.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:28 am
by Spidey
"There are almost 88 million people living there and many of them are protesting against their government even in the face of death!"
Does that include the ones that are constantly chanting "Death to Israel" and "Death to America"?
In Iran the "morality Police" will beat you to death for dressing incorrectly, but apparently calling for genocide is ok.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:51 am
by Vander
Trump isn't Iran. Trump is Hamas.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:32 am
by Tunnelcat
No, Trump is the Ayatolla of the ultra right. All those MAGA supporters and unregulated militias are his proxies, like Hamas. They worship him and will do his bidding with the same unquestioning religious ferver and loyalty that drives every religious Islamic terrorist in the world, hate of the "other" infidels. Humans are the same all over and nothing is any different here in the U.S. Trump supporters just can't reconcile that fact because they so believe in their cause, the destruction of the left, they are blinded by that fervor to the exclusion of all else. Crush the enemy or die trying. No reconciliation. Sound familiar?
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:38 am
by Will Robinson
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:32 am
No, Trump is the Ayatolla of the ultra right. All those MAGA supporters and unregulated militias are his proxies, like Hamas. They worship him and will do his bidding with the same unquestioning religious ferver and loyalty that drives every religious Islamic terrorist in the world, hate of the "other" infidels. Humans are the same all over and nothing is any different here in the U.S. Trump supporters just can't reconcile that fact because they so believe in their cause, the destruction of the left, they are blinded by that fervor to the exclusion of all else. Crush the enemy or die trying. No reconciliation. Sound familiar?
Hmmm where have we seen that before?
“If you want to know what Trump would evolve to if his revolutionaries had managed to plant him back on his throne in the White House, and somehow he was able to resume his presidency....just look at the Ayatollah! This is the same ★■◆●ing thing.” Will Robinson 3 days ago
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:42 am
by Krom
Seems relevant.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:59 am
by Will Robinson
Krom wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:17 am
This entire thread is you being mad because Biden hasn't launched World War III yet, it is petty and stupid. …:
You’re restating that assumption over and over is stupid. I already told you I’m not advocating any action at all. You just can’t stand that my motive doesn’t line up with something you are comfortable dismissing out loud so you constantly proclaim it be something you can feel good about opposing.
Krom wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:17 amThere are almost 88 million people living there and many of them are protesting against their government even in the face of death! ..
yes, I’ve been holding out hope they will be emboldened to rise up again soon. Too bad the leader of free world isn’t brave enough to support them. But how could they believe him even if he did considering he is trying to buy the Iranian leaderships friendship instead. He is not the kind of person any sane people should trust in something that holds their life in the balance.
Krom wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:17 am The middle east conflicts aren't so simple that just lashing out at Iran will solve anything, in fact doing so is pretty much guaranteed to make things worse.
You want to know who knows how to manage and game the conflicts in the Middle East better than anyone else? Ayatollah’s in Iran. They have literally written the book and will kill you if you dare disparage it.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:17 pm
by Vander
Tunnelcat wrote:No, Trump is the Ayatolla of the ultra right.
Trump is a clown show, entertaining and distracting the rubes. He has no cause or code or ideology other than self-aggrandizement. If he didn't deliver to the real power in this country what they wanted, installing their hand picked ayatollahs onto the court, he'd have been shived.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:01 pm
by Will Robinson
Iran gets it
"The crimes of the Zionist regime are carried out with the support of the United States and Washington must be held accountable,"
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:33 pm
by Vander
So now Israel is Trump and the US is... Trump? Or Israel is the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys and the US is Trump?
This is all so stupid. We can actually use the words to say exactly what we want to say instead of silly analogies.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:23 pm
by Krom
Lets hear a different conservatives take on how the Biden administration has been handling the current situation:
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:31 pm
by Will Robinson
Vander wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:33 pm
So now Israel is Trump and the US is... Trump? Or Israel is the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys and the US is Trump?
This is all so stupid. We can actually use the words to say exactly what we want to say instead of silly analogies.
I tried that in the first post. You basically told me I had to remove the crux of my point and then the parts you didn’t mind would be accepted.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:00 pm
by Tunnelcat
Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:38 am
Hmmm where have we seen that before?
“If you want to know what Trump would evolve to if his revolutionaries had managed to plant him back on his throne in the White House, and somehow he was able to resume his presidency....just look at the Ayatollah! This is the same ★■◆●ing thing.” Will Robinson 3 days ago
Yeah, I skimmed that one, so sue me. The problem is, the U.S. Ayatollah His Exellency Trump has a 50/50 chance of being re-elected. Biden is not that popular and has his own baggage and scandals. Trump's followers will vote for him no matter how many convictions he racks up. If he wins, then what?
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:31 am
by Tunnelcat
Well, since you didn't speculate, here's what's going to happen if Trump wins in 2024, I will. Once Trump gets back into office and is drunk on all that power, and you know he's tasted it and loves it like cocaine, he's going to go on a petty revenge vendetta of the likes we've never seen a leader of our country participate in. He'll surround himself with sycophants who'll do his bidding. First off, he'll pardon everyone convicted of crimes defending Trump, like all those Jan. 6th rioters. Every sycophant who went to jail for protecting him or doing his illegal bidding as well. Everyone who's ever participated in slighting, indicting, crossing or even calling him names will be targets of his revenge. Anyone who's called him out on his Big Lie or the Jan. 6th Insurrection and tried to prosecute him for those deeds, Democrats at the top of the list I might add, right on down to governors, state elections officials, judges and court clerks, will all be attacked. That will take up most of his time, not running the country. If you don't believe me, you're not an American who treasures democracy and the rule of law or understands how an egomaniac like Trump functions. Personally, I'm not against a conservative winning office. But if that conservative is an ultra right, left hating, Q-Anon worshiping, culture warrior, antisemite fascist prick, I will not cast a vote for him or her.
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:32 pm
by woodchip
Krom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:51 am
Remember folks, nothing is too much of a stretch and all sources are absolute rock solid as long as it says anything bad about democrats.
You know, the Trump years really broke everything. Because it used to be when you came across news of some politician doing or saying something stupid it was easy to show it was fake or misconstrued or an outright lie, but now the republicans actually say and do those things! And they do it on purpose, on the record, trying to get as much attention as they can while doing it. So the republicans being absolutely bat-★■◆● insane has lowered the bar so much that conservatives now easily believe pretty much anything in the right wing media silo because they think the democrats/liberals/all politicians are on their same level.
So who lowered the bar to allow drag queens to get in costume and "read" to kids? Or lowered the bar to allow the FBI to put parents on a terrorist watch list. Or think it is a good idea to allow our borders to be open? Or sell our petroleum reserves to foreign countries?. Certainly not conservatives (and rhinos ain't conservative).
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:45 pm
by woodchip
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:31 am
Well, since you didn't speculate, here's what's going to happen if Trump wins in 2024, I will. Once Trump gets back into office and is drunk on all that power, and you know he's tasted it and loves it like cocaine, he's going to go on a petty revenge vendetta of the likes we've never seen a leader of our country participate in. He'll surround himself with sycophants who'll do his bidding. First off, he'll pardon everyone convicted of crimes defending Trump, like all those Jan. 6th rioters. Every sycophant who went to jail for protecting him or doing his illegal bidding as well. Everyone who's ever participated in slighting, indicting, crossing or even calling him names will be targets of his revenge. Anyone who's called him out on his Big Lie or the Jan. 6th Insurrection and tried to prosecute him for those deeds, Democrats at the top of the list I might add, right on down to governors, state elections officials, judges and court clerks, will all be attacked. That will take up most of his time, not running the country. If you don't believe me, you're not an American who treasures democracy and the rule of law or understands how an egomaniac like Trump functions. Personally, I'm not against a conservative winning office. But if that conservative is an ultra right, left hating, Q-Anon worshiping, culture warrior, antisemite fascist prick, I will not cast a vote for him or her.
No, here's what happens, Trump cleans house i.e. replaces FBI, CIA, NSA and others with leadership that obey the law and not liberal schmucks that think they're a tool for a drooling idiot that can't climb stairs anymore. Your whole post outlines what the liberal groomers are doing right now and who you voted into office (and would vote for again) And you wouldn't know a ultra right, left hating, Q-Anon worshiping, culture warrior, antisemite fascist prick, if you met one. Oh wait. you'll let CNN or MSNBC tell you.
Tunnelcat wrote:No, Trump is the Ayatolla of the ultra right.
Trump is a clown show, entertaining and distracting the rubes. He has no cause or code or ideology other than self-aggrandizement. If he didn't deliver to the real power in this country what they wanted, installing their hand picked ayatollahs onto the court, he'd have been shived.
Yet when he was in power, did the Russian's attack Ukraine? Was gas over or under 2.00 a gal" Did we give the Taliban 9 billion worth of military equipment in our haste to leave? Was our border more or less secure? Were we losing money due to inflation? So call me a rube but I'll take his self aggrandizement. As to delivering the courts, how is he any different than Biden?
Re: Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:49 pm
by woodchip
Krom wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:42 am
Seems relevant.
I suspect you want to reduce the horror of the barbaric act to some sort of cartoon to salve you conscience. Your cartoon is nothing but a metaphor for what you think is intellect.
Tunnelcat wrote:No, Trump is the Ayatolla of the ultra right.
Trump is a clown show, entertaining and distracting the rubes. He has no cause or code or ideology other than self-aggrandizement. If he didn't deliver to the real power in this country what they wanted, installing their hand picked ayatollahs onto the court, he'd have been shived.
